Very long post of thoughts from David Buschur.......
Understatement of the year
Mar 3, 2006, 07:28 AM
#95
Evolving Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Gainesville, Fl
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by EVIL_EV0
I'll buy the cheapest high quality parts I can find.
These are the same people who complain about customer service after their part breaks and there's no one around to answer the phone or help them out in any way. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I buy things for my car I don't mind paying a little more to get the service and accountability of a Buschur Racing or a Road Race Engineering. I've been to several DSM Shootouts and seen Dave at work. He may not be a great business man, but he is a great guy and that's a big reason why certain trends in the Mitsu community bother him so much.
Mar 3, 2006, 07:30 AM
#96
Evolved Member
iTrader: (41)
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Toms River, NJ
Posts: 4,653
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by trinydex
why? mostly cuz america is run by a bunch of accountants, accountants have no concept of pride or honor, no idea of loyalty. why do movies like office space exist, sure it's a damn funny movie but it really points out the truth of american incorperation, industry and commercial. it's inhumane... and that's waht happens when you let greedy people take over the upper echelons of government and industry.
Accountants prepare and analyze accounting records, and prepare financial statements. They assess accuracy, completeness, etc. Then there is developing and analyzing budgets, computing taxes, and things like that. A big part of accounting is also auditing which the main puirpose is to check the accuracy and materiality of the financial statements so investors can make the right decisions about their invesments. What Im saying is, accountants don't run much of anything. I dont know of many accountants in CEO positions. Its managment who runs the corporations and is changing is making the kind of decisions to outsource and things like that.
Accountants dont run America. Wealthy politicians do who are most of the time attorneys. Very, very wealthy attorneys. Everyone has that rich friend who is so stingy with money... they have so much of it but they act like they dont have enough and everything they do has to do with money. Thats the kind of people who run the country.
Mar 3, 2006, 07:42 AM
#97
Evolved Member
iTrader: (171)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Anyway (and boo hoo-haha), he told me today that $2500 of each and every car that GM, Ford and Chrysler sells goes towards workers health insurance and retirement. In comparison, Toyota is less than $50 per car!!
", the US carmakers are dragged down by the huge burden of benefits for retired workers, such as health care, which accounts for $930 of the cost of each GM's vehicles, $560 of Ford's and only $110 of Toyota's- putting americans at a severe disadvantage. Ford loses $258 for every car it produces, compared with toyota's profit of $1698 per vehicle."
i know the point you are making, i just wanted to make sure u got the numbers right.
Mar 3, 2006, 08:20 AM
#98
Originally Posted by clappton
These are the same people who complain about customer service after their part breaks and there's no one around to answer the phone or help them out in any way. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I buy things for my car I don't mind paying a little more to get the service and accountability of a Buschur Racing or a Road Race Engineering. I've been to several DSM Shootouts and seen Dave at work. He may not be a great business man, but he is a great guy and that's a big reason why certain trends in the Mitsu community bother him so much.
Mar 3, 2006, 08:34 AM
#99
Its a good question as to who is the blame the most for the mess the USA has with China. I hate to think what things will be like in say five years from now. Definitely can put some blame on the unions, and auto manufacturers. Its as if they have no long term vision or plan. Most of my family worked for GM, retired. Enjoyed their pension and benefits. Those days are gone, long gone. When I was young and saw basically unskilled GM employees, neighbors, etc. People who couldn't start a lawnmower but made a base pay of $50,000 plus a year for working on an assembly line. Take that same person out in the real world and try and employ them at the same pay rate. Good luck. The whole American middle class standard of living is and has been in reverse for a long time now. Too many people for way too long made a living being paid way too much. Thats the bottom line. GM, Ford and Chrysler are all bleeding dry now. **** poor designs, bringing what is decent to market, way too late. Their whole business cycle and philosophy is way off. Its as though they start outsourcing and using parts and components from China, South America, etc as a crutch to compete against Honda, Toyota. But its more than a little too late.
I've bought new four GM trucks over the years, and four Mitsu 4G63 powered cars new also.
It did bother me that I didn't buy domestic. But then what did the US manufacturers have to offer that even compared. Not much.
Lately I hear how there are China made domestic or V-8 hop up parts. Cheap China cylinder heads, cranks. Its as though there is no boundary. Everything and anything can and will be copied. Go on Ebay. Look at SSAutochrome. They had over 1500 items for sale at one time when I checked. What caught my attention was the small block Chevy Headers, turbo Hyabusa headers, etc. There are no limits on what they sell. Sad part is they sell it as people buy it. Everyone in this country at one time or another is guilty of supporting the China product. Its almost impossible to avoid in everyday life. But whats sad is that any sense of patriotism or support for fellow Americans is lost out in the effort to stretch our dollars.
Case in point. I see new EVO owners with all sorts of Ebay parts on their cars. Sort of ironic if you think about it. $30,000 plus car but trys to mod it all up for $2000-3000 worth of parts. Which virtually none are made in the US or even Japan.
Mr. Buschur makes a great point with this topic. Maybe we should all just monitor our own buying habits or question our own decisions a little more. Its our country we live in. Most of us would like it to stay that way. Not become a new extension of China.
I've bought new four GM trucks over the years, and four Mitsu 4G63 powered cars new also.
It did bother me that I didn't buy domestic. But then what did the US manufacturers have to offer that even compared. Not much.
Lately I hear how there are China made domestic or V-8 hop up parts. Cheap China cylinder heads, cranks. Its as though there is no boundary. Everything and anything can and will be copied. Go on Ebay. Look at SSAutochrome. They had over 1500 items for sale at one time when I checked. What caught my attention was the small block Chevy Headers, turbo Hyabusa headers, etc. There are no limits on what they sell. Sad part is they sell it as people buy it. Everyone in this country at one time or another is guilty of supporting the China product. Its almost impossible to avoid in everyday life. But whats sad is that any sense of patriotism or support for fellow Americans is lost out in the effort to stretch our dollars.
Case in point. I see new EVO owners with all sorts of Ebay parts on their cars. Sort of ironic if you think about it. $30,000 plus car but trys to mod it all up for $2000-3000 worth of parts. Which virtually none are made in the US or even Japan.
Mr. Buschur makes a great point with this topic. Maybe we should all just monitor our own buying habits or question our own decisions a little more. Its our country we live in. Most of us would like it to stay that way. Not become a new extension of China.
Mar 3, 2006, 09:42 AM
#100
Evolved Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,496
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Right, it is possible that I am the first non american to post on this thread.
Believe me, the US is not the only country to feel the effects of China. Almost everyone is jumping into China to get parts made - as we all know, this has been going on for some time. I am not going to go into economics and history, but personally I don't think this is the way to go, not if you care about what you're making and want to make the best there is.
To me, it's not about being patriotic, but being sensible. Almost everyone I've spoken to has had qulity problems with China. Not about rights and stuff like that, but from a great number of sources, you have to have a guy there 24/7 to keep an eye on quality. It's not that they're cheating ba$tards, but they don't really know what they're making. To one person it's an intake valve port, to another it's a hole.
Even at a slightly higher cost, using a supplier you can have a proper relationship with IMO saves you money in the long run. You can uitlise the parts optimally (is this a word?), design better products with their contribution and expertise and at the end of the day have a supply of products that suits your application plus a warranty that you can do something with. (claiming on an out of spec product costing $200 half way around the world and waiting 6 weeks for a replacement is just not worth it). Heck, we're jealous of our competitors in Europe and the US for being able to source things so conveniently from competent suppliers. Sure we can find cheaper, but more often than not, not as good.
Of course this doesn't work with everything. There are 'minumum costs' items that we all use. Things like paperclips, blank cds' as so forth. But for things like performance parts for your cars you're paying for the design work that went into it, the credibility that stands behind it, the development costs and in most cases, the support you'll get. Sure, you're paying for advertisement and other such crap, but hopefully this is kept to a minimum. You're paying for it in a hope that the guys making them can continue to make great parts and develop more and better parts for your car.
Of course all these China made parts are a big wake up call for manufacturers that they can no longer get away with selling simple items at outrageous prices. And there's still a number of companies out there that sell stuff not at the cost price + profits (or something like that) but the price that people would be prepared to pay for it.
Obviously, we should all seek more cost effective ways to manufacture and every company needs profits. Now I think I've pointed out that there's not really all the much to gain in terms of overall cost effectiveness - relatively speaking - and really if all you can do to improve your profits is cut costs then you're clutching at straws. Products should become more profitable bacause they are better not because you've made them cheaper. That way, your product becomes better and better rather than slowly worse all the time. Then again, I'm an engineer and please bear in mind that I'm talking about low volume specialised items here, not nuts and bolts type stuff.
One thing I think I have to point out though, is that you really shouldn't be against Chinese products because of their wages. Theirs is a different system from yours and surprising as it is, they're not all working for slave wages. I mean where I am, I can get a normal lunch and a return trip to my office for $2.00 and still have change. I can only imagine that it's even cheaper in China adn so their wages are probably not as bad as you'd imagine.
Believe me, the US is not the only country to feel the effects of China. Almost everyone is jumping into China to get parts made - as we all know, this has been going on for some time. I am not going to go into economics and history, but personally I don't think this is the way to go, not if you care about what you're making and want to make the best there is.
To me, it's not about being patriotic, but being sensible. Almost everyone I've spoken to has had qulity problems with China. Not about rights and stuff like that, but from a great number of sources, you have to have a guy there 24/7 to keep an eye on quality. It's not that they're cheating ba$tards, but they don't really know what they're making. To one person it's an intake valve port, to another it's a hole.
Even at a slightly higher cost, using a supplier you can have a proper relationship with IMO saves you money in the long run. You can uitlise the parts optimally (is this a word?), design better products with their contribution and expertise and at the end of the day have a supply of products that suits your application plus a warranty that you can do something with. (claiming on an out of spec product costing $200 half way around the world and waiting 6 weeks for a replacement is just not worth it). Heck, we're jealous of our competitors in Europe and the US for being able to source things so conveniently from competent suppliers. Sure we can find cheaper, but more often than not, not as good.
Of course this doesn't work with everything. There are 'minumum costs' items that we all use. Things like paperclips, blank cds' as so forth. But for things like performance parts for your cars you're paying for the design work that went into it, the credibility that stands behind it, the development costs and in most cases, the support you'll get. Sure, you're paying for advertisement and other such crap, but hopefully this is kept to a minimum. You're paying for it in a hope that the guys making them can continue to make great parts and develop more and better parts for your car.
Of course all these China made parts are a big wake up call for manufacturers that they can no longer get away with selling simple items at outrageous prices. And there's still a number of companies out there that sell stuff not at the cost price + profits (or something like that) but the price that people would be prepared to pay for it.
Obviously, we should all seek more cost effective ways to manufacture and every company needs profits. Now I think I've pointed out that there's not really all the much to gain in terms of overall cost effectiveness - relatively speaking - and really if all you can do to improve your profits is cut costs then you're clutching at straws. Products should become more profitable bacause they are better not because you've made them cheaper. That way, your product becomes better and better rather than slowly worse all the time. Then again, I'm an engineer and please bear in mind that I'm talking about low volume specialised items here, not nuts and bolts type stuff.
One thing I think I have to point out though, is that you really shouldn't be against Chinese products because of their wages. Theirs is a different system from yours and surprising as it is, they're not all working for slave wages. I mean where I am, I can get a normal lunch and a return trip to my office for $2.00 and still have change. I can only imagine that it's even cheaper in China adn so their wages are probably not as bad as you'd imagine.
Last edited by x838nwy; Mar 3, 2006 at 09:54 AM.
Mar 3, 2006, 10:03 AM
#101
Interesting, I don't know you guys. The economist in me says well if you could save that much making parts in China cheaper, then you could turn around and use the savings for greater innovation and expansion. Maybe your welder wouldn't be needed, but maybe someone else would be based on your innovation or expansion. and so on.
Ten or 15 years ago every one was worried about the Japanese taking over America with their long term vision inexhaustable supply of capital and veracious appetite for business in the US. Well look at them now. the economy seems just now poised to come out of its years long slump. China will have its own issues, I'm not sure what they are exactly but they will have some. I'm much more worried about our current leadership here in the US. It is very scary.
NefBlk
Ten or 15 years ago every one was worried about the Japanese taking over America with their long term vision inexhaustable supply of capital and veracious appetite for business in the US. Well look at them now. the economy seems just now poised to come out of its years long slump. China will have its own issues, I'm not sure what they are exactly but they will have some. I'm much more worried about our current leadership here in the US. It is very scary.
NefBlk
Mar 3, 2006, 10:53 AM
#102
Evolved Member
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: 41° 59' N, 87° 54' W
Posts: 6,224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great posts by Dave and others. However, I think everyone is missing a big piece of the puzzle. Let me explain...
I've travelled all over the world: Europe, Asia, North America. One of the things that I have come to know as a certainty is that the standard of living in the U.S. is disproportionately high. Even when compared to European standards (which most people would think are about the same as here), the actual difference is nearly 2:1. When you start looking at poorer countries, for example Thailand or the Phillippines, that difference in living standards leaps to 10:1 if not significantly higher.
I don't see how the current standard of living in the US is can be sustainable in the long term. Our economy is artificially inflated by (comparably) cheap import products. Americans are basically living on the labors of the rest of the world. Sooner or later this is a situation that will correct itself - either the US standard of living will take a hit (i.e. your income will suddenly buy you less goods), or the rest of the world will have to increase its living standars (generally by selling their goods to the US).
This is pretty much what we are seeing with the China - US economies right now. Lots of Chines goods being sold for US $$. This is slowly raising the living standard of people in China. It is also negatively impacting working conditions here in the US, as more and more manufacturing jobs and skills are lost (this includes engineering, not just the guys working on the line). China is making the process worse by keeping millions (perhaps over one billion) of its citizens in the dark about what is happening to their economy. Many rural areas have no clue about how prosperous the major metropolitan areas have become and this is how China can and does continue to exploit its people.
l8r)
I've travelled all over the world: Europe, Asia, North America. One of the things that I have come to know as a certainty is that the standard of living in the U.S. is disproportionately high. Even when compared to European standards (which most people would think are about the same as here), the actual difference is nearly 2:1. When you start looking at poorer countries, for example Thailand or the Phillippines, that difference in living standards leaps to 10:1 if not significantly higher.
I don't see how the current standard of living in the US is can be sustainable in the long term. Our economy is artificially inflated by (comparably) cheap import products. Americans are basically living on the labors of the rest of the world. Sooner or later this is a situation that will correct itself - either the US standard of living will take a hit (i.e. your income will suddenly buy you less goods), or the rest of the world will have to increase its living standars (generally by selling their goods to the US).
This is pretty much what we are seeing with the China - US economies right now. Lots of Chines goods being sold for US $$. This is slowly raising the living standard of people in China. It is also negatively impacting working conditions here in the US, as more and more manufacturing jobs and skills are lost (this includes engineering, not just the guys working on the line). China is making the process worse by keeping millions (perhaps over one billion) of its citizens in the dark about what is happening to their economy. Many rural areas have no clue about how prosperous the major metropolitan areas have become and this is how China can and does continue to exploit its people.
l8r)
Mar 3, 2006, 11:13 AM
#103
Evolved Member
iTrader: (23)
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ludikraut
Great posts by Dave and others. However, I think everyone is missing a big piece of the puzzle. Let me explain...
I've travelled all over the world: Europe, Asia, North America. One of the things that I have come to know as a certainty is that the standard of living in the U.S. is disproportionately high. Even when compared to European standards (which most people would think are about the same as here), the actual difference is nearly 2:1. When you start looking at poorer countries, for example Thailand or the Phillippines, that difference in living standards leaps to 10:1 if not significantly higher.
I don't see how the current standard of living in the US is can be sustainable in the long term. Our economy is artificially inflated by (comparably) cheap import products. Americans are basically living on the labors of the rest of the world. Sooner or later this is a situation that will correct itself - either the US standard of living will take a hit (i.e. your income will suddenly buy you less goods), or the rest of the world will have to increase its living standars (generally by selling their goods to the US).
This is pretty much what we are seeing with the China - US economies right now. Lots of Chines goods being sold for US $$. This is slowly raising the living standard of people in China. It is also negatively impacting working conditions here in the US, as more and more manufacturing jobs and skills are lost (this includes engineering, not just the guys working on the line). China is making the process worse by keeping millions (perhaps over one billion) of its citizens in the dark about what is happening to their economy. Many rural areas have no clue about how prosperous the major metropolitan areas have become and this is how China can and does continue to exploit its people.
l8r)
I've travelled all over the world: Europe, Asia, North America. One of the things that I have come to know as a certainty is that the standard of living in the U.S. is disproportionately high. Even when compared to European standards (which most people would think are about the same as here), the actual difference is nearly 2:1. When you start looking at poorer countries, for example Thailand or the Phillippines, that difference in living standards leaps to 10:1 if not significantly higher.
I don't see how the current standard of living in the US is can be sustainable in the long term. Our economy is artificially inflated by (comparably) cheap import products. Americans are basically living on the labors of the rest of the world. Sooner or later this is a situation that will correct itself - either the US standard of living will take a hit (i.e. your income will suddenly buy you less goods), or the rest of the world will have to increase its living standars (generally by selling their goods to the US).
This is pretty much what we are seeing with the China - US economies right now. Lots of Chines goods being sold for US $$. This is slowly raising the living standard of people in China. It is also negatively impacting working conditions here in the US, as more and more manufacturing jobs and skills are lost (this includes engineering, not just the guys working on the line). China is making the process worse by keeping millions (perhaps over one billion) of its citizens in the dark about what is happening to their economy. Many rural areas have no clue about how prosperous the major metropolitan areas have become and this is how China can and does continue to exploit its people.
l8r)
Mar 3, 2006, 11:13 AM
#104
Originally Posted by x838nwy
Of course all these China made parts are a big wake up call for manufacturers that they can no longer get away with selling simple items at outrageous prices.
I'd pay 10% more for an american made cat back but I'm not going to allow myself to get bent over dry!
Mar 3, 2006, 11:35 AM
#105
Evolved Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ludikraut
Great posts by Dave and others. However, I think everyone is missing a big piece of the puzzle. Let me explain...
I've travelled all over the world: Europe, Asia, North America. One of the things that I have come to know as a certainty is that the standard of living in the U.S. is disproportionately high. Even when compared to European standards (which most people would think are about the same as here), the actual difference is nearly 2:1. When you start looking at poorer countries, for example Thailand or the Phillippines, that difference in living standards leaps to 10:1 if not significantly higher.
I don't see how the current standard of living in the US is can be sustainable in the long term. Our economy is artificially inflated by (comparably) cheap import products. Americans are basically living on the labors of the rest of the world. Sooner or later this is a situation that will correct itself - either the US standard of living will take a hit (i.e. your income will suddenly buy you less goods), or the rest of the world will have to increase its living standars (generally by selling their goods to the US).
This is pretty much what we are seeing with the China - US economies right now. Lots of Chines goods being sold for US $$. This is slowly raising the living standard of people in China. It is also negatively impacting working conditions here in the US, as more and more manufacturing jobs and skills are lost (this includes engineering, not just the guys working on the line). China is making the process worse by keeping millions (perhaps over one billion) of its citizens in the dark about what is happening to their economy. Many rural areas have no clue about how prosperous the major metropolitan areas have become and this is how China can and does continue to exploit its people.
l8r)
I've travelled all over the world: Europe, Asia, North America. One of the things that I have come to know as a certainty is that the standard of living in the U.S. is disproportionately high. Even when compared to European standards (which most people would think are about the same as here), the actual difference is nearly 2:1. When you start looking at poorer countries, for example Thailand or the Phillippines, that difference in living standards leaps to 10:1 if not significantly higher.
I don't see how the current standard of living in the US is can be sustainable in the long term. Our economy is artificially inflated by (comparably) cheap import products. Americans are basically living on the labors of the rest of the world. Sooner or later this is a situation that will correct itself - either the US standard of living will take a hit (i.e. your income will suddenly buy you less goods), or the rest of the world will have to increase its living standars (generally by selling their goods to the US).
This is pretty much what we are seeing with the China - US economies right now. Lots of Chines goods being sold for US $$. This is slowly raising the living standard of people in China. It is also negatively impacting working conditions here in the US, as more and more manufacturing jobs and skills are lost (this includes engineering, not just the guys working on the line). China is making the process worse by keeping millions (perhaps over one billion) of its citizens in the dark about what is happening to their economy. Many rural areas have no clue about how prosperous the major metropolitan areas have become and this is how China can and does continue to exploit its people.
l8r)
This trend isn't really anyone's fault. It is a simple fact that there are more people in this world consuming limited resources. IMO this will have the largest impact on the American living standard over the next few decades. The cost of labor will become less of an issue in driving prices. Basic raw material pricing will be the driving factor.