Turboniam

Usually we have a "9 month summer" ... 70 degrees feels pretty "cool" around these parts and a 40 degree day shuts the city down!

Coolguy949

iTrader: (10)

I dont think you understand what I was trying to say. On turbocharged cars it's a different matter than on supercharged or NA cars. The turbo is one of the hottest parts of the engine because it's attached to the hottest part of the engine. What I was trying to say earlier was that the air that passes through the turbo would be heated anyways because the turbo itself is searing with heat. Of course on a supercharged car or NA car colder air is going to make a clear difference because the air doesnt go through anything nearly as hot as a turbo on the way in.

That's all I was trying to say. I was trying to say you're wrong...or using this as ammunition for something. I posted it because i thought it was interesting and was wondering if maybe I was right about what you had disproven me about a couple days ago.

Rob

Coolguy949

iTrader: (10)

I always thought that was just because the intercooler is cooler on a cold day/night, not really just the air getting sucked in by the filter. The intercooler is after the turbo so that's the main cooling method for turbo cars. I have friends that have upgraded their intercooler and notice huge gains during turbo weather with the same intake sys as before but the bigger I/C. Again, this is aside from supercharged or NA cars because the supercharger/intake sys doesnt encounter a section with extreme temps.

OneEyedJack

iTrader: (6)

Ok, i am not a mechanic at all and i have an O.K. knowledge of cars and an O.K. knowledge of physics. If i am totally wrong, someone please feel free to correct me, i will not be offended!

Colder air is denser, because, being colder, it has less kinetic energy (the molecules arent moving around as much) and is therefore more "compact" if you will. Colder air therefore is more efficient pound for pound when sucked in a given intake volume. When the air passes through the turbo, it comes into contact with hot metal in the compressor, transferring heat (kinetic energy) to the air, which had the higher oxygen content to begin with. It is my understanding, that, the intercooler is there to cool the intake charge to make it SAFER to run the engine receiving that kind of compressed air mass (as far as detonation, running temp. internal wear etc. goes), NOT to "increase" the oxygen content, making the intake charge more potent. Cooling air will NOT create more oxygen, it simply makes the intake charge more "compact." This is how a CAI works, it intakes a given volume of air, which if cold, is more "potent" (contains more oxygen atoms per cm^3). Once the air is in the turbo piping, it is a finite volume, and cooling/heating it only changes its thermal properties.
What needs to be worried about here is thermal expansion. When the air recieves this heat (kinetic energy) in the compressor, it is more apt to expand once given the appropriate volume, however the number of oxygen molecules is the same. One would think that this would alter the rate at which air is recieved into the engine through the cylinder head, however, the turbo piping is a finite volume limiting thermal expansion. The air is still thus compressed to a degree greater than atmospheric pressure. In the engine, during the compression stroke after the intake vales open and let the intake charge in, it is under compression anyway. However, the cooling effect of the intercooler WILL make this safer reducing the temperature of received air, it will not make the air more "potent." (cooling ari cannot create oxygen molecules.)

In conclusion, i am only a phsyics student and have never been a mechanic nor do i even personally know any.
Feel free to call BS on me for i may be 100% wrong, and please include an explanation so i can increase my knowledge base.

The last thing i want to do is mislead anyone here, so my disclaimer:
I DO NOT THINK I AM INFALLIBLE

Turboniam

You're post sounds on cue with what I know... I was trying to spare the technical mumbo jumbo and avoid great detail, as I am not a science wizard.

The colder the air, the more dense the air is i.e. the more air and fuel you put in a car the faster it goes (not so technical again!)

That is why tuning a car for optimal performance almost has to be done daily as the air density (colder/hoter) changes... in fact it can chainge in the same day as the weather changes from during the day to running the car at night.

This has nothing to do with IC piping etc, it has to do with simply the colder the air that goes into the intake (air filter), the cooler it will be into the engine i.e. more dense the more power you can make.

To keep it simple here is an example:

Summer example: At the intake (air filter) it is 100 degrees, it goes through the turbo gets heated up, then cooled down by the intercooler and you get "X" degrees into the engine.

Winter example: At the intake it is 50 degrees, it goes through the turbo and gets heated up, but 50 degrees less than before, then cooled down by the intercooler which is working with 50 degrees less than before and you get "X -50" degrees that goes into the engine.

Because the cooler air is more dense you get more oxygen into the engine and the car runs "leaner" ... to compensate you can add more fuel and we all know that "more air and more fuel = more power i.e. a faster car."

I hope that was simple enough to help explain why everyone wants the coolest air possible going into the intake as oppossed to extra hot air from the engine bay. This is for ALL cars ESPECIALLY FI cars.

Turboniam

This is correct... but not what we are talking about.

If you friend had a small SMIC and it could only "cool" down the temp "1X" from his turbo, THEN he puts on a large FMIC and it is able to "cool" the air even better to "3X," of course he will realize a substantial gain because of the more efficient intercooler regardless of whether it is during the winter, summer, or on Mars.

But we are not talking about intercoole efficiency... we are talking "intake" temps (temp at the air filter).

skibum

How much power would be gained by running the air conditioning to the intake?

Coolguy949

iTrader: (10)

Since my question earlier wasnt even remotely answered:

So then what you're saying is that it doesnt matter if the air passes through the hot turbo....there still should be a power gain from the colder air?

TaiwanEvo

iTrader: (1)

.. speaking not from experience.. But on Honda cars... The piping of the short ram was always bigger then that of the Cold air intakes.. I think initially the Cold air is better thus gaining more low end... But since the turbo needs to be fed with lots and lots of air.. the short rams draws the air quicker and faster then that of the Cold air.. Cold air seems to be more restricted since the pimping is longer and such.. Thus i think on turbo cars short rams are better!!!.. just my .02cents.. Sorry if this has been sad.. I'm at work and refuse to read page 3 since it got too long.. Btw I think i am RIGHT!!!!!!

TaiwanEvo

iTrader: (1)

i think if you look at it most drag cars.. have short ram.. no one really uses cold air for anything but daily driving.. i personally think the cold air is better, then short ram on daily driving bases.. But once it comes to Top speed running.. I think the SHort Ram will OWN!!!

I4K20C

Won't AEM or injen or some company come out wit a cold-air-intake system for this car.. both thos companies usally have dyno's of their preofrmance and their competors..so guss we can jsu wait and see... but im more worried about getin more mpg on this car then hp wit a intake..since this car doesn't get the "best" gas milage..

TaiwanEvo

iTrader: (1)

i think Cold air works better for N/A cars.. but i know many of my friends swapped out their CAI for Short ram system.. just because it opens up better top end

Turboniam

Sorry, which question did I not answer? I guess I missed it or answered some other question

Exactly, ceterus perabus (all things being equal), colder air is better than hot air for performance. (and that is the simplest way to put it)

What I am trying to help you understand is to forget about the turbo, and intercooler, and just focus on the temp at the intake (air filter). Because that is all we are discussing

Turboniam

These principles may apply to Honda cars, but what we are talking about has nothing to do with what you are describing as far as intake set-ups which are COMPLETELY different from the EVO.

We aren't talking "how long should the intake pipe be" which is what you are describing, but rather is "ram air/cold air/fresh air induction" really good for anything over sucking up the hot air out of the engine bay related to performance?

Thanks for your input, but I hope everyone would disregard your information as useful in the Honda world and not applying to the EVOs

Diesel

iTrader: (8)

so.... what IS the part number for the K&N drop in for the EVO... i'll just try this out for now, and wait until next year to look into a different type of intake...