spun rod bearing in buschur motor
Jun 5, 2006, 10:06 AM
#16
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Greg
I disagree
On evos the rod bearings are very soft and knock can wipe them out
I have seem it many many times
On my own race evo one pass with too much knock can wipe out rod bearfings
I disagree
On evos the rod bearings are very soft and knock can wipe them out
I have seem it many many times
On my own race evo one pass with too much knock can wipe out rod bearfings
Jun 5, 2006, 10:06 AM
#18
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Originally Posted by GregGSC
Al
would have to disagree with you on this. most of the time when a bearing is spun it is do to one of three things. 1. the bearing clearance was not in spec. ie machining problem or assembly problem.( in this case the motor went 2k miles which leads me to believe its something else) 2. the motor was over reved on a down shift (i would probably think this is the culprit) 3. Insufficient oiling or to much oil pressure is also the consideration.
As to what you should do its kind of up to you. Spending $600 on shipping is going to suck to have to buy a new crank and a new rod and a set of bearings. I would probably have someone do it local if there is anyone good around you, but obviously if you went to buschur in the first place the likely hood of some one in your area being trust worthy or knowledgeable is not an option.
would have to disagree with you on this. most of the time when a bearing is spun it is do to one of three things. 1. the bearing clearance was not in spec. ie machining problem or assembly problem.( in this case the motor went 2k miles which leads me to believe its something else) 2. the motor was over reved on a down shift (i would probably think this is the culprit) 3. Insufficient oiling or to much oil pressure is also the consideration.
As to what you should do its kind of up to you. Spending $600 on shipping is going to suck to have to buy a new crank and a new rod and a set of bearings. I would probably have someone do it local if there is anyone good around you, but obviously if you went to buschur in the first place the likely hood of some one in your area being trust worthy or knowledgeable is not an option.
Jun 5, 2006, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by value
Even with having a stout Buschur motor, did Dave give a 
to rev to 10K ? Seems pretty high, maybe it's just me.
to rev to 10K ? Seems pretty high, maybe it's just me.
Jun 5, 2006, 10:18 AM
#21
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Greg
I disagree
On evos the rod bearings are very soft and knock can wipe them out
I have seem it many many times
On my own race evo one pass with too much knock can wipe out rod bearfings
I disagree
On evos the rod bearings are very soft and knock can wipe them out
I have seem it many many times
On my own race evo one pass with too much knock can wipe out rod bearfings
The car runs racefuel only.
Jun 5, 2006, 10:19 AM
#23
I don't want to speculate either, I have had a cathastropic engine failure on a 4G63 in the past, specifically a rod making a 2"whole in the block of a Plymouth Laser RS.
Unfortunately this happened days after I spent $1300 in brand new OEM pistons and other internals during a full engine rebuild. The mechanic theory was that: "I hit something with my oil pan crushing the oil pan botton causing the oil pump to not being able to suck oil"
Whatever is the case you should take either the entire car to Buschur or remove the engine and send it to Buschur, you can never rule out machine shop defect, operator error when installing,fatigue on new parts,defect on new parts or like Al said Knock and bad gas.
Whatever you do I wish you good luck, it is not fun going through all that.
My .2c
Carlos
Unfortunately this happened days after I spent $1300 in brand new OEM pistons and other internals during a full engine rebuild. The mechanic theory was that: "I hit something with my oil pan crushing the oil pan botton causing the oil pump to not being able to suck oil"
Whatever is the case you should take either the entire car to Buschur or remove the engine and send it to Buschur, you can never rule out machine shop defect, operator error when installing,fatigue on new parts,defect on new parts or like Al said Knock and bad gas.
Whatever you do I wish you good luck, it is not fun going through all that.
My .2c
Carlos
Jun 5, 2006, 10:20 AM
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what really makes me sad is that my stock bottom end probally had more than 20k miles on hight boost pass's with sunoco 110 octane, and the same tune on a built bottom end couldnt hold 800miles, and their was nothing wrong with my stock bottom end, i just felt and needed a forged bottom end. i use a safc2 to monitor knock, all though a crude method of mointoring knock, it is effective. i use the same safc2 to mointor knock on the stock bottom end for the last 20k miles, with great success.
Jun 5, 2006, 10:38 AM
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Just my two cents
First sorry to hear that the member here had any problems at all - I know this much suck for him
Second - David Buschur is a stand up guy and people can trust him when sending in a part for warranty issues to do the right and honest thing
Third - Shep and myself have used the same Buschur 2.0 L engines to 10,000 rpms with no problems and they are very robust and high quality motors
Fourth - when you have very strong aftermarket rods and forged pistons when a knock event occurs WHAT do you think happens ?
The piston is compressing the charge going upwards in the cyl bore when suddenly the mxiture pre-ignites and causes a massive spike in cyl pressure as the upwards moving piston impacts against the exlpoding mixture
With those stiff rods what happens is that the entire piston and rod assembly rattles about in the bore twisting and shocking the stock meaterial rod bearings
Think of the thin soft lining in your knee joints - that is the rod bearing
Detonation can and will destroy rod bearings
SAFC is NO WAY to data log for knock
A knock link gauge on your dash would be a better indication or a dedicated data logging set up
First sorry to hear that the member here had any problems at all - I know this much suck for him
Second - David Buschur is a stand up guy and people can trust him when sending in a part for warranty issues to do the right and honest thing
Third - Shep and myself have used the same Buschur 2.0 L engines to 10,000 rpms with no problems and they are very robust and high quality motors
Fourth - when you have very strong aftermarket rods and forged pistons when a knock event occurs WHAT do you think happens ?
The piston is compressing the charge going upwards in the cyl bore when suddenly the mxiture pre-ignites and causes a massive spike in cyl pressure as the upwards moving piston impacts against the exlpoding mixture
With those stiff rods what happens is that the entire piston and rod assembly rattles about in the bore twisting and shocking the stock meaterial rod bearings
Think of the thin soft lining in your knee joints - that is the rod bearing
Detonation can and will destroy rod bearings
SAFC is NO WAY to data log for knock
A knock link gauge on your dash would be a better indication or a dedicated data logging set up
Jun 5, 2006, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Just my two cents
First sorry to hear that the member here had any problems at all - I know this much suck for him
Second - David Buschur is a stand up guy and people can trust him when sending in a part for warranty issues to do the right and honest thing
Third - Shep and myself have used the same Buschur 2.0 L engines to 10,000 rpms with no problems and they are very robust and high quality motors
Fourth - when you have very strong aftermarket rods and forged pistons when a knock event occurs WHAT do you think happens ?
The piston is compressing the charge going upwards in the cyl bore when suddenly the mxiture pre-ignites and causes a massive spike in cyl pressure as the upwards moving piston impacts against the exlpoding mixture
With those stiff rods what happens is that the entire piston and rod assembly rattles about in the bore twisting and shocking the stock meaterial rod bearings
Think of the thin soft lining in your knee joints - that is the rod bearing
Detonation can and will destroy rod bearings
SAFC is NO WAY to data log for knock
A knock link gauge on your dash would be a better indication or a dedicated data logging set up
First sorry to hear that the member here had any problems at all - I know this much suck for him
Second - David Buschur is a stand up guy and people can trust him when sending in a part for warranty issues to do the right and honest thing
Third - Shep and myself have used the same Buschur 2.0 L engines to 10,000 rpms with no problems and they are very robust and high quality motors
Fourth - when you have very strong aftermarket rods and forged pistons when a knock event occurs WHAT do you think happens ?
The piston is compressing the charge going upwards in the cyl bore when suddenly the mxiture pre-ignites and causes a massive spike in cyl pressure as the upwards moving piston impacts against the exlpoding mixture
With those stiff rods what happens is that the entire piston and rod assembly rattles about in the bore twisting and shocking the stock meaterial rod bearings
Think of the thin soft lining in your knee joints - that is the rod bearing
Detonation can and will destroy rod bearings
SAFC is NO WAY to data log for knock
A knock link gauge on your dash would be a better indication or a dedicated data logging set up
first: thanks
second:then why dont he say that at worse he will half it with me at least i only have 2k miles and the car under boost has only a little over 500 miles
third: you yourself said that spun rod bearings happen on built motors and even in your earlier post made me understand it has happen to you, is that saying your a bad tuner?????
fourth why can the stock bottom end take it and not a built bottom ened take it????
safc: i said that was a crude way but effective
Last edited by blowoffsilver; Jun 5, 2006 at 10:54 AM.
Jun 5, 2006, 11:01 AM
#30
I only would like to clarify some things. I am not going to get into an engine building story here on how it should be done, why they fail and what the weak part is and the fix for it in the EVO engines. The reason I am not going to do that is I sell a LOT of engines and see no need to pass along any tips to other people who are considering building their own engine or having someone else do it.
I'd like to say first that I will bet I have built more 4G63 engines than anyone in this entire country. We ship ATLEAST one engine out of our shop a week and that is a slow week. I'd say on average it is 2 and last week we shipped 6.
What this should tell you is if you hear of an engine we built failing from time to time the odds of it happening are slim to none.
Next, the weakest link in the 4g63 engine that comes in the Evolution is the rod bearings. They are well known for failing, very well known. If you do a search you will find the number one engine failure posted here on EVOm is rod bearings. To have it happen is common.
That brings me to the next thing. We have seen many engines come in with spun rod bearings. Majority are stock engines with stock rod bolts and bearings. We feel it is the stock rod bolt stretching slightly and then it leads to the bearing failing. The solution to that is stronger rod bolts. That brings us to the next problem which is the rod bearing itself. With that I am going to shut up as the fix, or we hope, is finally here and we have it. I have shipped about 10 engines out of our shop with this new fix in it and we are waiting to see what comes of it over the months/year ahead.
The reason for rod bearing failures or basically you can narrow it down to engines wearing out in general. BOOST and RPM. Those are the two leading causes of engines needing rebuilt or repaired. In the case of this engine I was never told it had been taken to 10,000 rpm in the contact I have had with the customer. It doesn't matter as the engine can go to 10,000 rpm, we build them so they will. The problem is it is basically dumb to do it as the turbo on this particular car was done making power at 7500 rpm or so. This means you are reving it for no reason what-so-ever and it is going to wear out faster for nothing.
John Shepherd, has our engine in his car. It goes to 11,000 rpm every pass. It was in the entire season last year and had ZERO problems. Quite amazing actually. Stock block and crank. Ran 7.97 at 179 mph in the 1/4 mile in an AWD Talon. I'd say that is testiment enough that I can build an engine. The engine is still in the car and he is not pulling it. Says it is the only engine he has ever had from anyone (first time I built one for him) that has lasted a season. He is running it again this year without pulling it out.
Last is I did talk to this customer about this. We do not offer a SPECIFIC warranty on our engines, nothing written or no certain time limit. We do have a warranty though. The warranty is the best you can get it is MY WORD that the engine is put together correctly and will hold up. There is no better warranty than my word. I told him to send it back to us. We would give it to our machine shop and have them take it apart and inspect it. I could do this myself but I use our machine shop as a 3rd party. They determine what they think happened. If it is something they did in the maching process they cover it for me. If they say I did something wrong, then I cover it. IF they can not determine the cause of the failure, which sometimes is the case, then at the very worst I will fix the engine for MY EXACT COST OF PARTS AND PAY THE SHIPPING BACK TO THE CUSTOMER.
I had a good customer down at Top Speed buy an engine from us. Shortly after getting it he had a rod bearing spin too. We actually determined the problem was on his end. Being he was a very good customer and had bought a lot of stuff from us I still covered the job.
I have no control over what happens to the shortblock when it leaves. I don't know if new oil coolers are used, if new oil pumps are used, if the bypass in the head is tightened down so the oil pressure is good, if there were leaks, if the oil pump pick up was on or tight, if the cams were torqued down, if all the old parts were cleaned properly, if the front cover gasket was installed correctly not to block any of the oil feed passages etc. etc.
Honestly, I cannot remember the last time I made a mistake putting an engine together or our machine shop. The chances of it being our fault is very very very slim. The chances of spinning the engine to 10,000 rpm is more likely a cause than us.
I am more than willing to look at it and atleast try to find fault in our work. If I do it is free. If not it is the cost of the parts to fix it.
I am sorry it happened to you, it sucks. I know. I have had two freak failures in my RS in the last two weeks. Both seem to be valve related, we are trying to get to the bottom if it now. Things happen in racing/high performance.
As I told you when I talked to you. I have absolutely nothing to gain by screwing you over and everything to gain by taking care of your engine and making you happy.
www.buschurracing.com
I'd like to say first that I will bet I have built more 4G63 engines than anyone in this entire country. We ship ATLEAST one engine out of our shop a week and that is a slow week. I'd say on average it is 2 and last week we shipped 6.
What this should tell you is if you hear of an engine we built failing from time to time the odds of it happening are slim to none.
Next, the weakest link in the 4g63 engine that comes in the Evolution is the rod bearings. They are well known for failing, very well known. If you do a search you will find the number one engine failure posted here on EVOm is rod bearings. To have it happen is common.
That brings me to the next thing. We have seen many engines come in with spun rod bearings. Majority are stock engines with stock rod bolts and bearings. We feel it is the stock rod bolt stretching slightly and then it leads to the bearing failing. The solution to that is stronger rod bolts. That brings us to the next problem which is the rod bearing itself. With that I am going to shut up as the fix, or we hope, is finally here and we have it. I have shipped about 10 engines out of our shop with this new fix in it and we are waiting to see what comes of it over the months/year ahead.
The reason for rod bearing failures or basically you can narrow it down to engines wearing out in general. BOOST and RPM. Those are the two leading causes of engines needing rebuilt or repaired. In the case of this engine I was never told it had been taken to 10,000 rpm in the contact I have had with the customer. It doesn't matter as the engine can go to 10,000 rpm, we build them so they will. The problem is it is basically dumb to do it as the turbo on this particular car was done making power at 7500 rpm or so. This means you are reving it for no reason what-so-ever and it is going to wear out faster for nothing.
John Shepherd, has our engine in his car. It goes to 11,000 rpm every pass. It was in the entire season last year and had ZERO problems. Quite amazing actually. Stock block and crank. Ran 7.97 at 179 mph in the 1/4 mile in an AWD Talon. I'd say that is testiment enough that I can build an engine. The engine is still in the car and he is not pulling it. Says it is the only engine he has ever had from anyone (first time I built one for him) that has lasted a season. He is running it again this year without pulling it out.
Last is I did talk to this customer about this. We do not offer a SPECIFIC warranty on our engines, nothing written or no certain time limit. We do have a warranty though. The warranty is the best you can get it is MY WORD that the engine is put together correctly and will hold up. There is no better warranty than my word. I told him to send it back to us. We would give it to our machine shop and have them take it apart and inspect it. I could do this myself but I use our machine shop as a 3rd party. They determine what they think happened. If it is something they did in the maching process they cover it for me. If they say I did something wrong, then I cover it. IF they can not determine the cause of the failure, which sometimes is the case, then at the very worst I will fix the engine for MY EXACT COST OF PARTS AND PAY THE SHIPPING BACK TO THE CUSTOMER.
I had a good customer down at Top Speed buy an engine from us. Shortly after getting it he had a rod bearing spin too. We actually determined the problem was on his end. Being he was a very good customer and had bought a lot of stuff from us I still covered the job.
I have no control over what happens to the shortblock when it leaves. I don't know if new oil coolers are used, if new oil pumps are used, if the bypass in the head is tightened down so the oil pressure is good, if there were leaks, if the oil pump pick up was on or tight, if the cams were torqued down, if all the old parts were cleaned properly, if the front cover gasket was installed correctly not to block any of the oil feed passages etc. etc.
Honestly, I cannot remember the last time I made a mistake putting an engine together or our machine shop. The chances of it being our fault is very very very slim. The chances of spinning the engine to 10,000 rpm is more likely a cause than us.
I am more than willing to look at it and atleast try to find fault in our work. If I do it is free. If not it is the cost of the parts to fix it.
I am sorry it happened to you, it sucks. I know. I have had two freak failures in my RS in the last two weeks. Both seem to be valve related, we are trying to get to the bottom if it now. Things happen in racing/high performance.
As I told you when I talked to you. I have absolutely nothing to gain by screwing you over and everything to gain by taking care of your engine and making you happy.
www.buschurracing.com