spun rod bearing in buschur motor
Jun 5, 2006, 11:18 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by davidbuschur
I only would like to clarify some things. I am not going to get into an engine building story here on how it should be done, why they fail and what the weak part is and the fix for it in the EVO engines. The reason I am not going to do that is I sell a LOT of engines and see no need to pass along any tips to other people who are considering building their own engine or having someone else do it.
I'd like to say first that I will bet I have built more 4G63 engines than anyone in this entire country. We ship ATLEAST one engine out of our shop a week and that is a slow week. I'd say on average it is 2 and last week we shipped 6.
What this should tell you is if you hear of an engine we built failing from time to time the odds of it happening are slim to none.
Next, the weakest link in the 4g63 engine that comes in the Evolution is the rod bearings. They are well known for failing, very well known. If you do a search you will find the number one engine failure posted here on EVOm is rod bearings. To have it happen is common.
That brings me to the next thing. We have seen many engines come in with spun rod bearings. Majority are stock engines with stock rod bolts and bearings. We feel it is the stock rod bolt stretching slightly and then it leads to the bearing failing. The solution to that is stronger rod bolts. That brings us to the next problem which is the rod bearing itself. With that I am going to shut up as the fix, or we hope, is finally here and we have it. I have shipped about 10 engines out of our shop with this new fix in it and we are waiting to see what comes of it over the months/year ahead.
The reason for rod bearing failures or basically you can narrow it down to engines wearing out in general. BOOST and RPM. Those are the two leading causes of engines needing rebuilt or repaired. In the case of this engine I was never told it had been taken to 10,000 rpm in the contact I have had with the customer. It doesn't matter as the engine can go to 10,000 rpm, we build them so they will. The problem is it is basically dumb to do it as the turbo on this particular car was done making power at 7500 rpm or so. This means you are reving it for no reason what-so-ever and it is going to wear out faster for nothing.
John Shepherd, has our engine in his car. It goes to 11,000 rpm every pass. It was in the entire season last year and had ZERO problems. Quite amazing actually. Stock block and crank. Ran 7.97 at 179 mph in the 1/4 mile in an AWD Talon. I'd say that is testiment enough that I can build an engine. The engine is still in the car and he is not pulling it. Says it is the only engine he has ever had from anyone (first time I built one for him) that has lasted a season. He is running it again this year without pulling it out.
Last is I did talk to this customer about this. We do not offer a SPECIFIC warranty on our engines, nothing written or no certain time limit. We do have a warranty though. The warranty is the best you can get it is MY WORD that the engine is put together correctly and will hold up. There is no better warranty than my word. I told him to send it back to us. We would give it to our machine shop and have them take it apart and inspect it. I could do this myself but I use our machine shop as a 3rd party. They determine what they think happened. If it is something they did in the maching process they cover it for me. If they say I did something wrong, then I cover it. IF they can not determine the cause of the failure, which sometimes is the case, then at the very worst I will fix the engine for MY EXACT COST OF PARTS AND PAY THE SHIPPING BACK TO THE CUSTOMER.
I had a good customer down at Top Speed buy an engine from us. Shortly after getting it he had a rod bearing spin too. We actually determined the problem was on his end. Being he was a very good customer and had bought a lot of stuff from us I still covered the job.
I have no control over what happens to the shortblock when it leaves. I don't know if new oil coolers are used, if new oil pumps are used, if the bypass in the head is tightened down so the oil pressure is good, if there were leaks, if the oil pump pick up was on or tight, if the cams were torqued down, if all the old parts were cleaned properly, if the front cover gasket was installed correctly not to block any of the oil feed passages etc. etc.
Honestly, I cannot remember the last time I made a mistake putting an engine together or our machine shop. The chances of it being our fault is very very very slim. The chances of spinning the engine to 10,000 rpm is more likely a cause than us.
I am more than willing to look at it and atleast try to find fault in our work. If I do it is free. If not it is the cost of the parts to fix it.
I am sorry it happened to you, it sucks. I know. I have had two freak failures in my RS in the last two weeks. Both seem to be valve related, we are trying to get to the bottom if it now. Things happen in racing/high performance.
As I told you when I talked to you. I have absolutely nothing to gain by screwing you over and everything to gain by taking care of your engine and making you happy. www.buschurracing.com
I'd like to say first that I will bet I have built more 4G63 engines than anyone in this entire country. We ship ATLEAST one engine out of our shop a week and that is a slow week. I'd say on average it is 2 and last week we shipped 6.
What this should tell you is if you hear of an engine we built failing from time to time the odds of it happening are slim to none.
Next, the weakest link in the 4g63 engine that comes in the Evolution is the rod bearings. They are well known for failing, very well known. If you do a search you will find the number one engine failure posted here on EVOm is rod bearings. To have it happen is common.
That brings me to the next thing. We have seen many engines come in with spun rod bearings. Majority are stock engines with stock rod bolts and bearings. We feel it is the stock rod bolt stretching slightly and then it leads to the bearing failing. The solution to that is stronger rod bolts. That brings us to the next problem which is the rod bearing itself. With that I am going to shut up as the fix, or we hope, is finally here and we have it. I have shipped about 10 engines out of our shop with this new fix in it and we are waiting to see what comes of it over the months/year ahead.
The reason for rod bearing failures or basically you can narrow it down to engines wearing out in general. BOOST and RPM. Those are the two leading causes of engines needing rebuilt or repaired. In the case of this engine I was never told it had been taken to 10,000 rpm in the contact I have had with the customer. It doesn't matter as the engine can go to 10,000 rpm, we build them so they will. The problem is it is basically dumb to do it as the turbo on this particular car was done making power at 7500 rpm or so. This means you are reving it for no reason what-so-ever and it is going to wear out faster for nothing.
John Shepherd, has our engine in his car. It goes to 11,000 rpm every pass. It was in the entire season last year and had ZERO problems. Quite amazing actually. Stock block and crank. Ran 7.97 at 179 mph in the 1/4 mile in an AWD Talon. I'd say that is testiment enough that I can build an engine. The engine is still in the car and he is not pulling it. Says it is the only engine he has ever had from anyone (first time I built one for him) that has lasted a season. He is running it again this year without pulling it out.
Last is I did talk to this customer about this. We do not offer a SPECIFIC warranty on our engines, nothing written or no certain time limit. We do have a warranty though. The warranty is the best you can get it is MY WORD that the engine is put together correctly and will hold up. There is no better warranty than my word. I told him to send it back to us. We would give it to our machine shop and have them take it apart and inspect it. I could do this myself but I use our machine shop as a 3rd party. They determine what they think happened. If it is something they did in the maching process they cover it for me. If they say I did something wrong, then I cover it. IF they can not determine the cause of the failure, which sometimes is the case, then at the very worst I will fix the engine for MY EXACT COST OF PARTS AND PAY THE SHIPPING BACK TO THE CUSTOMER.
I had a good customer down at Top Speed buy an engine from us. Shortly after getting it he had a rod bearing spin too. We actually determined the problem was on his end. Being he was a very good customer and had bought a lot of stuff from us I still covered the job.
I have no control over what happens to the shortblock when it leaves. I don't know if new oil coolers are used, if new oil pumps are used, if the bypass in the head is tightened down so the oil pressure is good, if there were leaks, if the oil pump pick up was on or tight, if the cams were torqued down, if all the old parts were cleaned properly, if the front cover gasket was installed correctly not to block any of the oil feed passages etc. etc.
Honestly, I cannot remember the last time I made a mistake putting an engine together or our machine shop. The chances of it being our fault is very very very slim. The chances of spinning the engine to 10,000 rpm is more likely a cause than us.
I am more than willing to look at it and atleast try to find fault in our work. If I do it is free. If not it is the cost of the parts to fix it.
I am sorry it happened to you, it sucks. I know. I have had two freak failures in my RS in the last two weeks. Both seem to be valve related, we are trying to get to the bottom if it now. Things happen in racing/high performance.
As I told you when I talked to you. I have absolutely nothing to gain by screwing you over and everything to gain by taking care of your engine and making you happy. www.buschurracing.com
but do you think the right way to fix this engine is too clean it up and put oversize bearings or put a new crank and a new rod, the guy at crower said the rod may be fixable.
I just see it as if i send it to you and pay 600 for shipping then i could have bought a new crank for that, not knowing if you cover it or not, i mean i just dont understand why this has happen??
you indicate alot about the oil cooler, are you thinking heat? i have a new oil pump and i still have all my reciptes.
Last edited by blowoffsilver; Jun 5, 2006 at 11:24 AM.
Jun 5, 2006, 11:25 AM
#33
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
In the case of this engine I was never told it had been taken to 10,000 rpm in the contact I have had with the customer. It doesn't matter as the engine can go to 10,000 rpm, we build them so they will. The problem is it is basically dumb to do it as the turbo on this particular car was done making power at 7500 rpm or so. This means you are reving it for no reason what-so-ever and it is going to wear out faster for nothing.
There is not one good reason to spin an engine past the optimum shift point in any gear, period. Doing so is just plain dumb (and potentially expensive).
Jun 5, 2006, 11:27 AM
#34
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I'm with Ted B on this one. 10K rpm is very very high and even the slightest imperfection in build/tune could cause this outcome. Because the tolerances become so tight at that RPM, my guess is that we'll never know exactly what happened and one could compellingly argue either way (tune vs. build).
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The former comment states that revving to 10K is an acceptable practice of a buyer of your engine; whereas, the latter states that the cause of this failure is likely to be the execution of your guarantee. If it's not a "guarantee," then you don't really "build them so they will." "Will" implies "will go to 10K and not experience catastrophic failure." For example, my stock bottom end from Mitsu "will" go to 10K rpm, but probably won't do it twice.
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
It doesn't matter as the engine can go to 10,000 rpm, we build them so they will.
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
The chances of spinning the engine to 10,000 rpm is more likely a cause than us.
The former comment states that revving to 10K is an acceptable practice of a buyer of your engine; whereas, the latter states that the cause of this failure is likely to be the execution of your guarantee. If it's not a "guarantee," then you don't really "build them so they will." "Will" implies "will go to 10K and not experience catastrophic failure." For example, my stock bottom end from Mitsu "will" go to 10K rpm, but probably won't do it twice.
Jun 5, 2006, 11:37 AM
#35
Coming from someone who does not have a single Buschur part on my car (not for his lack of trying 
), I'd say that one would be hard pressed to find a better "warranty" than that. I was going to post that I'd bet David would take care of you one way or another. I was going to go into how he would probably at the least, give you parts at cost or close as you have already spent a substantial amount of money with him. However, seems he beat me to the punch.
When you deal with the higher end shops... Buschur, AMS, etc. You really need to remember that THOSE guys have more to gain by taking care of their customers than anyone else. Those shops make money, it is no secret... therefore, if even not for the right reasons, they can afford to take care of people to keep the business flowing.
When you have a problem with product or services from one of these guys, pick up the phone and CALL them! Chances are that unless YOU did something obviously wrong, it will be taken care of. In this game though, you do have to pay to play.
), I'd say that one would be hard pressed to find a better "warranty" than that. I was going to post that I'd bet David would take care of you one way or another. I was going to go into how he would probably at the least, give you parts at cost or close as you have already spent a substantial amount of money with him. However, seems he beat me to the punch.When you deal with the higher end shops... Buschur, AMS, etc. You really need to remember that THOSE guys have more to gain by taking care of their customers than anyone else. Those shops make money, it is no secret... therefore, if even not for the right reasons, they can afford to take care of people to keep the business flowing.
When you have a problem with product or services from one of these guys, pick up the phone and CALL them! Chances are that unless YOU did something obviously wrong, it will be taken care of. In this game though, you do have to pay to play.
Jun 5, 2006, 11:38 AM
#36
There is a huge difference between an engine being able to/ going to 10k rpms for short periods of time/infrequently and driving your car that hard all the time. I feel that a lot of people forget no matter how much money you throw at your motor **** happens, and when your revving it to 10k its much more likely to happen......
Scorke
Scorke
Jun 5, 2006, 11:43 AM
#37
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i did not rev it to 10k more than twice and i just wish you could understand that when buschur stands behind the motor to rev to 10k then you expect it to be able to do it.
Jun 5, 2006, 11:45 AM
#38
What I worry about is it seems there is a misconception that you can rev a built 2.0L all you want to 10K. I've read many posts talking about rev 2.0L vice 2.3L. BUT if you don't tell Dave's engine builders that you plan on it. They won't build it for that purpose which I'm sure is not the same build as a standard build 2.0L I know Dave and others can build them to live at the rpm you just have to tell them and of course pay extra $$$.
Jun 5, 2006, 11:55 AM
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does buschur use a rod bolt stretch guage? most shops just torque the crowers to 45ft/lbs which usually only gets you about 2/3 of the way to full stretch. if the rod bolts don't reach this stretch point, high rpms will shift the bearing cap and cause bearing failures. I wounldn't reuse the rod.
Jun 5, 2006, 11:56 AM
#41
Ok what weight was the Mobil 1? 5w30? or 15w50?
Originally Posted by blowoffsilver
their was near to none knock,i have stock ecu and i had 110 octane like i allways do and i did race earlier that night but was driving normal on my way home when this happen.
i do not believe it was knock or detonation. i run mobil 1 syn and i bought and put in a new oil pump when we built the motor.
and as far as warrenty daivd buschur himself told me he dont put warrentys on his motor, which everyone on this forums should know
i do not believe it was knock or detonation. i run mobil 1 syn and i bought and put in a new oil pump when we built the motor.
and as far as warrenty daivd buschur himself told me he dont put warrentys on his motor, which everyone on this forums should know
Jun 5, 2006, 12:03 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by nickracer9
does buschur use a rod bolt stretch guage? most shops just torque the crowers to 45ft/lbs which usually only gets you about 2/3 of the way to full stretch. if the rod bolts don't reach this stretch point, high rpms will shift the bearing cap and cause bearing failures. I wounldn't reuse the rod.
