blown engine
Jun 25, 2006, 11:36 PM
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blown engine
I won't bore you with a mod list. I tried smoothing out my AEM map and I melted plugs 1 and 4. Checked the top of the pistons, looked OK. Put new plugs in, car started fine. I was leary so I took it to a shop somewhere in Ohio. I asked them to pull the head and check the tops of the pistons; if they were OK asseble it and tune it( it has an AEM). The shop declined to pull the head, checked the compression, 190 + across, and tuned it. An injectoror failed, stayed closed, leaned out, broke a piston. Engine #1.
Engine #2: Built an engine, CP pistons, Crower rods, balanced and blueprinted, ported and polished head, upgraded valve train with 1 mm over valves. Ran it on dyno, comprssion 90 in cylinder 1. Pulled head, found piece of piston ring holding valve open. Took to machine shopped, removed ring, checked valves( not bent), reseated valves, put back together. Turbo bad( debrie killed the hotside?), replaced with White rabbit.
Engine #2b: Had trouble with the wide band, got it working, back to the dyno. Keep in mind I've not seen my car in 2 months at this point. Got a call Saturday, rod knock between 4500 - 5000 RPM on the dyno at low boost. Stopped, gonna pull the oil pan tomorrow. Still haven't touched car.
The question: Who would be considered responsible for the engine? Would the shop be considered partially responsible at first? Especially considering that i asked them to pull the head and they didn't. Would you trust the engine after debrie damaged the head the first time? Obviously someone dropped the ball on checking and cleaning the parts. The last time with the dyno tune. they want to pull the oil pan, and if the crank looks OK replace the rod bearings. Would you trust it? Is this an accepted repair? Should i insist on them tearing the engine completely apart if it is truly rod knock?
I would really like to know what the vendors and engine shops say about this. I'm about $8000 in the hole and I'm beginning to get pissed off. I've considered removing the car, canceling all the charges the shop has made on my credit card, and consulting a lawyer. I probably will do the last at this point. I'll probably also send them the bill for the car I'm going to have to rent.
I would like to hear about the durabilty of this engine and about the shop's responsibilty in this situation.
Thanks for reading this.
Engine #2: Built an engine, CP pistons, Crower rods, balanced and blueprinted, ported and polished head, upgraded valve train with 1 mm over valves. Ran it on dyno, comprssion 90 in cylinder 1. Pulled head, found piece of piston ring holding valve open. Took to machine shopped, removed ring, checked valves( not bent), reseated valves, put back together. Turbo bad( debrie killed the hotside?), replaced with White rabbit.
Engine #2b: Had trouble with the wide band, got it working, back to the dyno. Keep in mind I've not seen my car in 2 months at this point. Got a call Saturday, rod knock between 4500 - 5000 RPM on the dyno at low boost. Stopped, gonna pull the oil pan tomorrow. Still haven't touched car.
The question: Who would be considered responsible for the engine? Would the shop be considered partially responsible at first? Especially considering that i asked them to pull the head and they didn't. Would you trust the engine after debrie damaged the head the first time? Obviously someone dropped the ball on checking and cleaning the parts. The last time with the dyno tune. they want to pull the oil pan, and if the crank looks OK replace the rod bearings. Would you trust it? Is this an accepted repair? Should i insist on them tearing the engine completely apart if it is truly rod knock?
I would really like to know what the vendors and engine shops say about this. I'm about $8000 in the hole and I'm beginning to get pissed off. I've considered removing the car, canceling all the charges the shop has made on my credit card, and consulting a lawyer. I probably will do the last at this point. I'll probably also send them the bill for the car I'm going to have to rent.
I would like to hear about the durabilty of this engine and about the shop's responsibilty in this situation.
Thanks for reading this.
Jun 25, 2006, 11:56 PM
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It's like seeing a mirror image of what I went through two years ago in my one of my Hondas.
A decent shop should take responsibility for engine 2b, but more than likely they will not. I feel your pain more than most after spending close to $8K at three shops trying to get my motor built right.
Good luck bud.
A decent shop should take responsibility for engine 2b, but more than likely they will not. I feel your pain more than most after spending close to $8K at three shops trying to get my motor built right.
Good luck bud.
Jun 26, 2006, 12:53 AM
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Summary: I think it's a pretty grey area but you're probably ****ed.
I purchased a new, ported intake manifold from a well-known tuner. On basic inspection it looked clean, certainly free of swarf. Didn't think to clean it further.
It turns out that unbeknownst to me, it had been "experimentally" extrude-honed by one of the guys in the tuner's shop, and they did not completely clean up the media after their experiment. I did not purchase an extrude-honed manifold and thus did not expect it to have been run-through with abrasive media and not cleaned up completely, although I guess I could have checked more carefully.
My local installer put it on for me in the course of a few other under-hood modifications. He happened to notice it was internally dirty, tried unsuccessfully to clean out all the abrasive, but installed it anyway, believing (mistakenly) that the media would pass harmlessly through the engine. He then took it for a test drive that likely cost 30-40psi of compression in each cylinder from scoring and lean events from where the media hotspotted.
Installer (with whom I'd built a good working relationship over 8 years) denied the gunk in the manifold could have done that damage, and even if it had, that it would have "obviously" been "the manufacturer's fault", but really he wanted to blame the tuner because it looked like the cylinders had run lean, given that the car was running "so much boost, man". In any case, felt it was "unfair" of me to blame him since I asked him to install the part in the first place.
The manifold manufacturer (who has been in the business longer than some Evo owners have been alive) took responsibility for the manifold being dirty but blamed the installer who had "obviously" made an error in judgment in installing his part having seen that it was unclean.
The tuner felt it was unlikely the car had run lean, but stopped short of pointing any fingers, because he knew then what I know now, which is ...
Once you starting mucking with your car, making a choice to modify it or put on unguaranteed parts it didn't come with, letting 3rd parties work on it, and (in some cases) rendering it legally unstreetable, etc. - all the while having fun with it when it's not being worked on - then responsibility for failures is pretty hard to assign - to say nothing of the possibility of legal recourse. The number of variables in the situation simply explodes.
It's a tough pill to swallow but I believe it to be true - that you pay to play, that getting someone else to foot the bill is going to be a *****, and it is probably not their bill to foot anyway, at least legally if not ethically.
I am no lawyer (perhaps Al can chime in!) but any court you bring your case to, well, it seems to me that first you might have to explain the dirty hands you're walking in with, not running emissions equipment and all. You may not have standing because to make your case you'd need first to explain why you had defeated your OBD-II ECU. Kind of like trying to sue your drug dealer for lacing your pot with PCP.
So a courtroom may not be a good forum in which to make your case.
So maybe you can get the shop to agree to arbitration, and then you at least might get your argument heard by a "neutral" 3rd party, but then the burden is still on you to show (to a non-enthusiast nonetheless) that nothing you ever did personally could have caused any link in the failure chain.
From the sheer perspective of "who puts the most mileage on the car", it could be hard to prove (either to a legal standard or to the satisfaction of an arbiter) the shop's mistake in the midst of the "possibility" of your having abused or mis-tuned the car.
Perhaps you can overcome that obstacle as well and present pretty damning evidence, maybe even have "experts" come forth and help demonstrate the shop's incompetence or negligence. Then, well, it's a question of the cost of your time, risk vs. reward. The good news there is, $8k is a lot of cash, so it seems worth the time investment, if you have the time (and additional money) to spare in which to put together an airtight argument. Unfortunately, given other things going on in my home and work life, I did not, so I ate it.
... but like I said initially, it really may have been my dinner to eat in the first place.
Best of luck - let us know how it goes.
I purchased a new, ported intake manifold from a well-known tuner. On basic inspection it looked clean, certainly free of swarf. Didn't think to clean it further.
It turns out that unbeknownst to me, it had been "experimentally" extrude-honed by one of the guys in the tuner's shop, and they did not completely clean up the media after their experiment. I did not purchase an extrude-honed manifold and thus did not expect it to have been run-through with abrasive media and not cleaned up completely, although I guess I could have checked more carefully.
My local installer put it on for me in the course of a few other under-hood modifications. He happened to notice it was internally dirty, tried unsuccessfully to clean out all the abrasive, but installed it anyway, believing (mistakenly) that the media would pass harmlessly through the engine. He then took it for a test drive that likely cost 30-40psi of compression in each cylinder from scoring and lean events from where the media hotspotted.
Installer (with whom I'd built a good working relationship over 8 years) denied the gunk in the manifold could have done that damage, and even if it had, that it would have "obviously" been "the manufacturer's fault", but really he wanted to blame the tuner because it looked like the cylinders had run lean, given that the car was running "so much boost, man". In any case, felt it was "unfair" of me to blame him since I asked him to install the part in the first place.
The manifold manufacturer (who has been in the business longer than some Evo owners have been alive) took responsibility for the manifold being dirty but blamed the installer who had "obviously" made an error in judgment in installing his part having seen that it was unclean.
The tuner felt it was unlikely the car had run lean, but stopped short of pointing any fingers, because he knew then what I know now, which is ...
Once you starting mucking with your car, making a choice to modify it or put on unguaranteed parts it didn't come with, letting 3rd parties work on it, and (in some cases) rendering it legally unstreetable, etc. - all the while having fun with it when it's not being worked on - then responsibility for failures is pretty hard to assign - to say nothing of the possibility of legal recourse. The number of variables in the situation simply explodes.
It's a tough pill to swallow but I believe it to be true - that you pay to play, that getting someone else to foot the bill is going to be a *****, and it is probably not their bill to foot anyway, at least legally if not ethically.
I am no lawyer (perhaps Al can chime in!) but any court you bring your case to, well, it seems to me that first you might have to explain the dirty hands you're walking in with, not running emissions equipment and all. You may not have standing because to make your case you'd need first to explain why you had defeated your OBD-II ECU. Kind of like trying to sue your drug dealer for lacing your pot with PCP.
So a courtroom may not be a good forum in which to make your case.
So maybe you can get the shop to agree to arbitration, and then you at least might get your argument heard by a "neutral" 3rd party, but then the burden is still on you to show (to a non-enthusiast nonetheless) that nothing you ever did personally could have caused any link in the failure chain.
From the sheer perspective of "who puts the most mileage on the car", it could be hard to prove (either to a legal standard or to the satisfaction of an arbiter) the shop's mistake in the midst of the "possibility" of your having abused or mis-tuned the car.
Perhaps you can overcome that obstacle as well and present pretty damning evidence, maybe even have "experts" come forth and help demonstrate the shop's incompetence or negligence. Then, well, it's a question of the cost of your time, risk vs. reward. The good news there is, $8k is a lot of cash, so it seems worth the time investment, if you have the time (and additional money) to spare in which to put together an airtight argument. Unfortunately, given other things going on in my home and work life, I did not, so I ate it.
... but like I said initially, it really may have been my dinner to eat in the first place.
Best of luck - let us know how it goes.
Jun 26, 2006, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by trev0006
sorry to hear, I have gone through what you are going through with my 93 RX7 and can feel your pain.
HAHAHAHA, Noting compares to the complications of a rotary when you blow an apex seal or side housing. Almost any mechanic can fix a 4 banger but when it comes to finding someone with skill to rebuild a rotary good luck. I love all my previous rotarys no matter how much a pain they were.
Jun 26, 2006, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ez76
... but any court you bring your case to, well, it seems to me that first you might have to explain the dirty hands you're walking in with, not running emissions equipment and all. You may not have standing because to make your case you'd need first to explain why you had defeated your OBD-II ECU. Kind of like trying to sue your drug dealer for lacing your pot with PCP.
So a courtroom may not be a good forum in which to make your case.
So maybe you can get the shop to agree to arbitration, and then you at least might get your argument heard by a "neutral" 3rd party, but then the burden is still on you to show (to a non-enthusiast nonetheless) that nothing you ever did personally could have caused any link in the failure chain.....
So a courtroom may not be a good forum in which to make your case.
So maybe you can get the shop to agree to arbitration, and then you at least might get your argument heard by a "neutral" 3rd party, but then the burden is still on you to show (to a non-enthusiast nonetheless) that nothing you ever did personally could have caused any link in the failure chain.....
l8r)
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Jun 26, 2006, 03:04 PM
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Sorry to hear that dude, I had the same thing happen with my evo motor build. rod bearings went on the stock motor, than the mains on the built motor less than a few months after. Sorry to say, the shop is prob gonna give your crap, based on my experience. Almost seems like you are rolling the dice on your motor with many builders. On my built motor, the main bearings were sitting in the oil pan when it was opened. Machine shop pretty much said tough luck these thing happen.
Good luck
Good luck
Jun 26, 2006, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by joeycoates
Did the shop tuning the car build the engine?
Jun 26, 2006, 10:54 PM
#11
Originally Posted by ez76
Summary: I think it's a pretty grey area but you're probably ****ed.
I purchased a new, ported intake manifold from a well-known tuner. On basic inspection it looked clean, certainly free of swarf. Didn't think to clean it further.
It turns out that unbeknownst to me, it had been "experimentally" extrude-honed by one of the guys in the tuner's shop, and they did not completely clean up the media after their experiment. I did not purchase an extrude-honed manifold and thus did not expect it to have been run-through with abrasive media and not cleaned up completely, although I guess I could have checked more carefully.
My local installer put it on for me in the course of a few other under-hood modifications. He happened to notice it was internally dirty, tried unsuccessfully to clean out all the abrasive, but installed it anyway, believing (mistakenly) that the media would pass harmlessly through the engine. He then took it for a test drive that likely cost 30-40psi of compression in each cylinder from scoring and lean events from where the media hotspotted.
Installer (with whom I'd built a good working relationship over 8 years) denied the gunk in the manifold could have done that damage, and even if it had, that it would have "obviously" been "the manufacturer's fault", but really he wanted to blame the tuner because it looked like the cylinders had run lean, given that the car was running "so much boost, man". In any case, felt it was "unfair" of me to blame him since I asked him to install the part in the first place.
The manifold manufacturer (who has been in the business longer than some Evo owners have been alive) took responsibility for the manifold being dirty but blamed the installer who had "obviously" made an error in judgment in installing his part having seen that it was unclean.
The tuner felt it was unlikely the car had run lean, but stopped short of pointing any fingers, because he knew then what I know now, which is ...
Once you starting mucking with your car, making a choice to modify it or put on unguaranteed parts it didn't come with, letting 3rd parties work on it, and (in some cases) rendering it legally unstreetable, etc. - all the while having fun with it when it's not being worked on - then responsibility for failures is pretty hard to assign - to say nothing of the possibility of legal recourse. The number of variables in the situation simply explodes.
It's a tough pill to swallow but I believe it to be true - that you pay to play, that getting someone else to foot the bill is going to be a *****, and it is probably not their bill to foot anyway, at least legally if not ethically.
I am no lawyer (perhaps Al can chime in!) but any court you bring your case to, well, it seems to me that first you might have to explain the dirty hands you're walking in with, not running emissions equipment and all. You may not have standing because to make your case you'd need first to explain why you had defeated your OBD-II ECU. Kind of like trying to sue your drug dealer for lacing your pot with PCP.
So a courtroom may not be a good forum in which to make your case.
So maybe you can get the shop to agree to arbitration, and then you at least might get your argument heard by a "neutral" 3rd party, but then the burden is still on you to show (to a non-enthusiast nonetheless) that nothing you ever did personally could have caused any link in the failure chain.
From the sheer perspective of "who puts the most mileage on the car", it could be hard to prove (either to a legal standard or to the satisfaction of an arbiter) the shop's mistake in the midst of the "possibility" of your having abused or mis-tuned the car.
Perhaps you can overcome that obstacle as well and present pretty damning evidence, maybe even have "experts" come forth and help demonstrate the shop's incompetence or negligence. Then, well, it's a question of the cost of your time, risk vs. reward. The good news there is, $8k is a lot of cash, so it seems worth the time investment, if you have the time (and additional money) to spare in which to put together an airtight argument. Unfortunately, given other things going on in my home and work life, I did not, so I ate it.
... but like I said initially, it really may have been my dinner to eat in the first place.
Best of luck - let us know how it goes.
I purchased a new, ported intake manifold from a well-known tuner. On basic inspection it looked clean, certainly free of swarf. Didn't think to clean it further.
It turns out that unbeknownst to me, it had been "experimentally" extrude-honed by one of the guys in the tuner's shop, and they did not completely clean up the media after their experiment. I did not purchase an extrude-honed manifold and thus did not expect it to have been run-through with abrasive media and not cleaned up completely, although I guess I could have checked more carefully.
My local installer put it on for me in the course of a few other under-hood modifications. He happened to notice it was internally dirty, tried unsuccessfully to clean out all the abrasive, but installed it anyway, believing (mistakenly) that the media would pass harmlessly through the engine. He then took it for a test drive that likely cost 30-40psi of compression in each cylinder from scoring and lean events from where the media hotspotted.
Installer (with whom I'd built a good working relationship over 8 years) denied the gunk in the manifold could have done that damage, and even if it had, that it would have "obviously" been "the manufacturer's fault", but really he wanted to blame the tuner because it looked like the cylinders had run lean, given that the car was running "so much boost, man". In any case, felt it was "unfair" of me to blame him since I asked him to install the part in the first place.
The manifold manufacturer (who has been in the business longer than some Evo owners have been alive) took responsibility for the manifold being dirty but blamed the installer who had "obviously" made an error in judgment in installing his part having seen that it was unclean.
The tuner felt it was unlikely the car had run lean, but stopped short of pointing any fingers, because he knew then what I know now, which is ...
Once you starting mucking with your car, making a choice to modify it or put on unguaranteed parts it didn't come with, letting 3rd parties work on it, and (in some cases) rendering it legally unstreetable, etc. - all the while having fun with it when it's not being worked on - then responsibility for failures is pretty hard to assign - to say nothing of the possibility of legal recourse. The number of variables in the situation simply explodes.
It's a tough pill to swallow but I believe it to be true - that you pay to play, that getting someone else to foot the bill is going to be a *****, and it is probably not their bill to foot anyway, at least legally if not ethically.
I am no lawyer (perhaps Al can chime in!) but any court you bring your case to, well, it seems to me that first you might have to explain the dirty hands you're walking in with, not running emissions equipment and all. You may not have standing because to make your case you'd need first to explain why you had defeated your OBD-II ECU. Kind of like trying to sue your drug dealer for lacing your pot with PCP.
So a courtroom may not be a good forum in which to make your case.
So maybe you can get the shop to agree to arbitration, and then you at least might get your argument heard by a "neutral" 3rd party, but then the burden is still on you to show (to a non-enthusiast nonetheless) that nothing you ever did personally could have caused any link in the failure chain.
From the sheer perspective of "who puts the most mileage on the car", it could be hard to prove (either to a legal standard or to the satisfaction of an arbiter) the shop's mistake in the midst of the "possibility" of your having abused or mis-tuned the car.
Perhaps you can overcome that obstacle as well and present pretty damning evidence, maybe even have "experts" come forth and help demonstrate the shop's incompetence or negligence. Then, well, it's a question of the cost of your time, risk vs. reward. The good news there is, $8k is a lot of cash, so it seems worth the time investment, if you have the time (and additional money) to spare in which to put together an airtight argument. Unfortunately, given other things going on in my home and work life, I did not, so I ate it.
... but like I said initially, it really may have been my dinner to eat in the first place.
Best of luck - let us know how it goes.
Jun 27, 2006, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ludikraut
That can work both ways, since if it is determined that the shop installed non-street legal equipment on a car that was clearly headed for street use, the court could also shut the shop down.
l8r)
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Jun 27, 2006, 06:27 AM
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anything with out a carb number is technically illegal. thank god i live in indiana where they don't care.
as for the engine, i have had the same thing happen. thanks to JG in cali sending me an assembled shortblock with about 5lbs of shavings in it, that was then cleaned and assembled by someone local - but then he put the pistons in 180 degress the wrong way so the oversized valve didn't quite fit in the pockets. Won the small claims court for 6k+ but he then appealled it to superior court where i know i would have won but i would have needed a lawyer at that point and in indiana those kind of cases you can't recoupe your legal fees if you win making whatever settlement i would have gotten sucked up by the lawyer.
it sucks, but it happens... like the guy said earlier - you pay to play, but better put if you're gonna play eventually you will pay.
good luck though
as for the engine, i have had the same thing happen. thanks to JG in cali sending me an assembled shortblock with about 5lbs of shavings in it, that was then cleaned and assembled by someone local - but then he put the pistons in 180 degress the wrong way so the oversized valve didn't quite fit in the pockets. Won the small claims court for 6k+ but he then appealled it to superior court where i know i would have won but i would have needed a lawyer at that point and in indiana those kind of cases you can't recoupe your legal fees if you win making whatever settlement i would have gotten sucked up by the lawyer.
it sucks, but it happens... like the guy said earlier - you pay to play, but better put if you're gonna play eventually you will pay.
good luck though
Jun 27, 2006, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 05graphiteMR
anything with out a carb number is technically illegal. thank god i live in indiana where they don't care.
l8r)