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Good AFRs... Still possible to blow a motor?

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Old Jul 13, 2006, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by boostin'
So besides good afr's what would be the ideal target for egt's on 91 oct., 93 octane if tuning to say a 23 psi spike with a taper to 18/19 psi on a mbc? Anyone with a 91 octane tune with a egt gauge care to chime in?
Other then that ARE electronic boost gauges a little bit more accurate then the good ol' mechanical boost gauges?
IIRC most people that run EGT tend to target 800-850 or below. This is from reading about EGTs on Socalevo where most of the people tune on 91 octane gas.

As for the boost gauges, the most accurate are the MAP based ones. I have my XD-16 innovate gauge set-up to read boost from the 3 bar MAP sensor that I use to log boost. The guage has a circular LED display that you can custom color. I had mine set up to read green when in vaccum, one blue bar when the boost come one, red bars all the way to peak boost, and at peak boost (21.xx psi) one teal bar.

This has helped me a great deal in daily drivng. I can stay out of boost almost all the time. I also know when I hit peak boost everytime I go WOT.
Old Jul 13, 2006, 09:03 PM
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it is very well possible to blow a motor w/ good AFR's. the most common way people do it is by using stupidity. aalot of people think they can buy a boost controller, & flash & run 30PSI. it ain't gonna happen w/out some consequences. the stock turbo runs out of efficiency @ 25PSI. after that, it's just blowing hot air. also too much timing can be bad as well especially if u don't have a built head 2 go with it. on the '03, i am running between 20-23 degrees of advanced timing in my 3-5 gears spiking to 27PSI tapering to 23 by 7200rpm on stock cams & Sunoco GT Plus 104 octane unleaded with a flat AFR of 11.5:1 from 3300RPM all the way to about 6Krpm where it slightly dips into the 10.9:1 range by redline...
Old Jul 13, 2006, 10:41 PM
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The WBO2 I run has a free air calibration utility that I run every now and again.

I was going to say that the 25 psi figure in the post above is too high for aftermarket cams, but I see the stock cams mentioned at the end. Once boost starts to drop and airflow/time is maxed out, the turbo is maxed. The amount of boost this occurs at depends on the setup. With good intercooling this doesn't matter much at all, especially on race gas. The extreme example I like to give, just to illustrate the point, since it's not possible, is that with 100% IC efficiency, compressor efficiency doesn't really matter.

I can't recall if I already mentioned this in this thread, but I recall losing a particular motor at 10.3 to 1 with no knock at all. The cause was too much timing. I made an adjustment to my intake cam gear and forgot to reset base timing (2g with 1g CAS), so it was at 10 instead of 5. I knew I was pushing my luck with 23 degrees on the logger, but it was really 28. Number two spark plug came apart and ruined that cylinder. Lean AFR creates excessive heat, which can do some damage. But timing increases heat probably on an exponential curve is it is increased. It's directly linked to pressure, and pressure is heat. Timing is much more sensitive than AFR. It is also more likely to give you power gains that are worthwhile. Anything from 11:1 to 13:1 gives me the same trap speeds (more on the 13:1 in a bit). But a 1 or two degree change in timing, up to the low 20s, gives measureable power increases. It's very important to increase it 1 or 2 degrees at a time, and watch carefully for the point of deminishing return.

I recently started running BR8ES plugs. I've had so many mishaps with spark plugs coming apart I thought I would try something other than the BPR7ESs I've been running for 6 years. Last friday at the track, I dropped in the settings from my last dyno pull the day before, and for some reason still unknown to me AFR was 13.0 to 1 through all 4 gears. The entire run. And this wasn't a WBO2 error, DSMlink was commanding this same 13:1 ratio. This was with about 22 degrees of peak timing and as much boost/airflow as the turbo could make. I stongly feel that the only reason the motor surived was these plugs. I've lost many motors in similar circumstances. I immediately pulled the plugs after that run, and they looked as good as new. No signs of detonation either (no knock in the logs). I've had them in over a month now with no fouling or driveability problems. I'll never go back.
Old Jul 13, 2006, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by boostin'
So besides good afr's what would be the ideal target for egt's on 91 oct., 93 octane if tuning to say a 23 psi spike with a taper to 18/19 psi on a mbc? Anyone with a 91 octane tune with a egt gauge care to chime in?
Other then that ARE electronic boost gauges a little bit more accurate then the good ol' mechanical boost gauges?

sure. i live in Los Angeles. Defilink BF gauges and Zeitronix setup show the same boost number about 21 psi spike taper down to 19psi. AFR 11.3-11.1, EGT peak at 830-840C. 91 octane
Old Jul 13, 2006, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by nj1266
From what I know about WBO2 sensors is that they tend to be less accurate over time, especially on cars like ours that run rich. A sensor will be accurate at 14.7:1, but is it accurate at 11:1 after a period of use. The caliberation that the WBO2 sensor has from the factory becomes useless as time goes on. There should be a way to re-caliberate the O2 sensor after using for a while. Or the WB device that you are using should have the ability to tell you that the sensor is inaccurate.
I agree with you there. I have my WBO2 hooked up and I log almost everyday. I have amassed a pretty nice database in less than a year. People tend to choke at the price of WBO2 devices that can log w/o a laptop such as the PLX or Innovate and they get others that either cannot log or can log with a lap top. Lap top logging becomes cumbersome for daily use.
WTF is a WBO2 sensor ?? you mean Narrow band o2 sensor
Old Jul 13, 2006, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by vboy425
WTF is a WBO2 sensor ?? you mean Narrow band o2 sensor
No, I mean wideband O2 sensors like the Bosch or NTK sensors. These tend to lose accuracy over time and require free air calibration every now and then. Some wideband devices will tell you that your sensor is off and will tell you perform free air calibration like was mentioned by kjewer1

The WBO2 I run has a free air calibration utility that I run every now and again.
Old Jul 13, 2006, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by vboy425
sure. i live in Los Angeles. Defilink BF gauges and Zeitronix setup show the same boost number about 21 psi spike taper down to 19psi. AFR 11.3-11.1, EGT peak at 830-840C. 91 octane
Did you log your boost numbers or were you just eyeballing the Zeitronix. In my case the Defi D was 1-1.5 psi off than the log showed.
Old Jul 14, 2006, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by nj1266
No, I mean wideband O2 sensors like the Bosch or NTK sensors. These tend to lose accuracy over time and require free air calibration every now and then. Some wideband devices will tell you that your sensor is off and will tell you perform free air calibration like was mentioned by kjewer1
GOTCHA

Originally Posted by nj1266
Did you log your boost numbers or were you just eyeballing the Zeitronix. In my case the Defi D was 1-1.5 psi off than the log showed.
RECORDED BOOST AND EGT WITH THE DEFI LINK CONTROLL BOX AND LOG THE EGT, BOOST, AND AFR ON THE ZEITRONIX WITH LAPTOP
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