I have searched to find some comparison data regarding the merits of removing the maf from the evo8 when using a MAP-based stand-alone ecu & I did not find much.

At what point is there merit in removing the oem maf & oem inlet tube & replacing it with a aftermarket inlet, NO MAF & using a aftermarket airfilter.

Dont flame just yet.

Yeah, there are many threads on aftermarket intakes making/loosing power over the oem set-up while utilizng the oem maf....that is not what i am asking about.

Yeah, people will say so & so made 500 hp on the oem maf & oem airbox, etc.... I am sure that if that same 500 hp kar put on a stock cat, the kar would make 450 hp...Then following the same logic, that person would be boasting that the stock cat is good for 450 hp.....Not something i want to do.

I am looking for any info / documented power or response gains my removing the oem maf & utilizing a different intake tube on the stock turbo

Thanks in advance

 

Eh... I don't think there's much. If you're trying to eek out every bit of HP that you can (and that will require constant tuning for different weather conditions), then you can switch to a MAP setup.

Granted, a car will run fine with MAP setups; Hondas have been doing for years.

But anyways, for one reference, a twin turbo Ford GT recently put down 1400+whp and he's still using a single MAF. They may switch to a dual MAF setup though.

 

I can't comment on power, and this is on a heavily modded DSM and not an EVO, but I saw an improvement in boost threshold of around 300-400 rpm switching from the stock 2g MAS to a blow through MAFT. I want to say this was on a 35R sized turbo, but I'd have to do some serious digging through old threads on the local forum to get the details. At any rate, I think it is safe to say that there are some gains to be had. I'd also say that it's not worth making the swap only for that reason. If you go with an AEM for other reasons, it's too easy to not make the switch. But I wouldn't go too far out of my way just to eliminate the MAS. But this is just my personal somewhat related two cents.

 

I haven't noted any pattern whereby GT35R cars running speed density have consistently out powered / outperformed comparably MAF equipped examples. That being said, while there is likely some difference (however small), I agree in that any value in eliminating the MAF is mostly a part of converting to a speed density system, and isn't really worth being an agenda in itself - or not in most street vehicles anyway.

 

Thanks guy's, i am already running in map form, & the oem maf & inlet tube is still in place, as i am too lazy & toooo cheap to swap those parts out.

Just trying to get the most out of what i go for minimal money.

thanks

 

What the problem is here is that people jump to MAP based tuning without verifying the advantages and gains if there are any. This question has been asked 1000 times and no one has stepped up to the plate and gave a definate answer.

Now Im sure if someone would make a comparison do you really think it would be on a stock turbo? I highly doubt it.

It's been said over and over again that you will have to try what works for your car. I have been though 3 exhausts, 3 turbos, 3 clutchs, 4 types of EM, 2 suspensions, etc. But the very most important thing that you can do is find yourself a good tuner. This person will be the key player into making the parts you bought made worth while.

Do you really care about maybe 5-10hp?

Im guessing you got this idea from my other thread started on removing my MAF for a GM unit. I didn't do the switch for power, I did it for smoothness in the powerband and drivibility. I sucked in my first MAF which is also a thread and the 2nd one i had was on it's way into the turbo as well. Now that I found a way to get rid of the stock MAF without going to a MAP based set-up I think it will work out just perfectly with a little added power, possibly a little better spoolup.

Sorry for the off-topic there but back to your question, ask your tuner what he recommends. Most dont like the K/N CAI or whatever its called, the AEM is OK, HKS I had good luck with, Buschur I had the best power come out of. And if you intrested I have a Buschur intake for sale.

Just for reference I made 433/395 on a MD dyno 2-3 months ago with a stock MAF. With nothing changed and heading back to the dyno soon I dont think the gain will be too much

 

For referece the biggest reason people do it is ...... RICE! Yes that is correct they get to dump thier DV/BOV to the atmousphere and it makes a very loud woosh. Not only that but a filter can be put directly on to the turbo so you hear the whirrrrrr of the turbo quite clear.

Back in the DSM days people switched because they were outflowing the stock MAF. On the EVO the only problem I have seen is very large turbo have been sucking in the guts of the MAF. This however has been corrected by using a "superglue" on the honeycomb and aiming the DV into the trubo.

If you do go with the MAP setup have fun tuning it yourself!

BTW the RICE thig was just a joke. But honestly for 99% of us, there aren't many (if any) reasons to switch.

 

I am considerin doing it, that is why ia ask

on a stock turbo, yes


sort of, i have been wondering this for a while, but the real reason for me asking the original question, is that DB in another thread stated that when installing a aem unit over his tuned oem ecu, he got a substantial gain in power, among the ecu change was the removal of the oem maf

Thanks for your insight guys... Keep it coming

 

Gotcha. Actually now you got me thinking of why most top shops wont use the stock MAF for comparison. 90% of members on here still utilize it. I can see advertising for the top potential out of the "set-up" but what about everything in between?

It seems everything is done using the AEM, isn't the OEM ECU enough? Look at some of the people on here, I think Smogrunner is in the upper 500's using the MAF and ECU, Stinkawhatevr is around there also. Look at TTP's car. I think Fynetune got 611 or something crazy.

 

I have been running some variation of blowthrough MAF's for several years now.. There really isn't a benefit until your upgrading to a larger than stock turbo that can outflow the stock MAF, but the problem isn't how much the stock MAF flows, but that at very high airflow rates will cause the sensor to read erratically.

Speed density conversions are "Old school" and pretty well understood, and therefore you see people using them more. Unfortunately drivability under all conditions isn't as good as a MAF, No matter what ANYONE says, you do give up drivability.

AEM EMS's advantage isn't only about removing the stock MAF, but its flexibility, its great for a race car, but its honestly not the best choice for a street car that has to deal with lots of different driving conditions. It has lots of features that are great for racing, most of which are never used by most people who have the EMS. Plus its Illegal and will not pass inspection in most states.

having a MAF is superior to any speed density system, which is why all new vehicles (even supercars) with EFI use them. Some flow better than others, some have less quirks than others. The Karmann Vortex Airflow Sensor is not a true MAF, its a Volume Airflow sensor, which means it needs several additional bits of data to calculate Mass, however the Karmann sensor is considered to be the most accurate meter in the industry. Unfortunately its also the most sensitive to airflow disruptions, vibration, noise, etc..

The two common conversion sensors (at least on american cars) is the GM MAF and the Ford MAF, both are fairly similar, in fact, some variations of both are manufactured by the same company. But the main difference between the two most common versions of GM and Ford MAF is the Ford unit outputs Voltage, the GM unit outputs a frequency.

Both units are available in sizes greater than the upper intercooler pipes we use on the Evo, and are therefore no longer a restriction (within reason) compared to the stock MAF.
The GM sensors are somewhat sensitive to moisture, and can have some issues with cold start when there is some condensation on the filament. The Ford sensor is not as sensitive to moisture as the GM sensor, but can occasionally have problems. These problems don't happen with the Karmann sensor.

So what does this all mean? Well, in reality, for most Evo owners, making under 400+ WHP, it means its not really worth upgrading, and with a good tune, you will be happier with a Reflash on a stock ECU. At higher HP levels, or if you have hardware that makes the MAF troublesome to tune, then a blowthrough setup might be a good swap.

I find that there are VERY FEW legitimate reasons to run a standalone on a street car, I think its really a shortcut to bypass the R&D in working with the stock ECU sucessfully, and your power capabilities between BOTH are IDENTICAL, you can indeed make the same power. The limitations are currently that we're learning about how the ECU works, and limitations of the stock MAF which can easily be bypassed/worked around.

The cheapest way to eliminate the MAF is with the MAFT, but its $200 for the maft, $100 or so for the MAF, $120 or so for the Upper intercooler pipe, plus the tuning time.. Unless you have a big turbo, you probably should spend your money on other parts and tuning until you really need it.

Yes, the blowthrough MAF has some benefits, but you have to weigh the cost, since the gains to be had, are a factor of working with other mods, and not directly the sensor itself.

 

Your post above is very true indeed.

but since I got my aem for nearly free, i am using it. I can tune to hearts content.

yes, the aem is overkill for the average gear head.

so far, my drivability, cold or hot, idle w/AC on or off is waay better than oem or oem w/flash.

my city & highway fuel economy is better than my reflashed oem too.

however, initial fire-up(sync'd) sucks on the aem

The primary reason for this thread in the first place, is to see if anyone has any comarison data on a oem turbo, on removing the oem maf sensor vs oem maf sensor in place......

I apologize in advance, just in case if i **** DB off by disecting what DB said in another thread, but i dont think i have taken anything out of context here

Based on the comments above got me thinking about this mod, as it looks like there maye some power to be had.....maybe i'll be pissing into the wind

Since i foud a airbox for cheap, i will be working on making a new tube/airbox/ maff elimator set-up & hopefully will post some data up in ~1 month....I am lazy, old, have a nagging wife, etc