E85 Ready!! with style :)
#76
EvoM Guru
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When it comes to E85, there's more to the "big picture" than the bits we focus on.. so everyones opinions are valid, but you have to take each point and weigh it yourself, this is what ultimately determines its value to yourself as an individual..
I myself understand that the net cost will be similar to gas, but the "domestic produced fuel", Power potential, fairly clean, minimal negative byproducts of production, etc are all positive aspects that make my decision easier.
I myself understand that the net cost will be similar to gas, but the "domestic produced fuel", Power potential, fairly clean, minimal negative byproducts of production, etc are all positive aspects that make my decision easier.
#77
Not to get too political
The New York Times
August 5, 2005
Too Much Pork and Too Little Sugar
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
September 20, 2006
Dumb as We Wanna Be
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
August 5, 2005
Too Much Pork and Too Little Sugar
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Wow, I am so relieved that Congress has finally agreed on an energy bill. Now that's out of the way, maybe Congress will focus on solving our energy problem. ...
And the world has changed in the past few years. First, the global economic playing field is being leveled, and millions of people who were out of the game -- from China, India and the former Soviet empire -- are now walking onto the field, each dreaming of a house, a car, a toaster and a microwave. As they move from low-energy to high-energy consumers, they are becoming steadily rising competitors with us for oil.
Second, we are in a war. It is a war against open societies mounted by Islamo-fascists, who are nurtured by mosques, charities and madrasas preaching an intolerant brand of Islam and financed by medieval regimes sustained by our oil purchases.
Yes, we are financing both sides in the war on terrorism: our soldiers and the fascist terrorists. George Bush's failure, on the morning after 9/11, to call on Americans to accept a gasoline tax to curb our oil imports was one of the greatest wasted opportunities in U.S. history. ...
Many technologies that could make a difference are already here -- from hybrid engines to ethanol. All that is needed is a gasoline tax of $2 a gallon to get consumers and Detroit to change their behavior and adopt them. As Representative Edward Markey noted, auto fuel economy peaked at 26.5 miles per gallon in 1986, and ''we've been going backward every since'' -- even though we have the technology to change that right now. ''This is not rocket science,'' he rightly noted. ''It's auto mechanics.''
It's also imagination. ''During the 1973 Arab oil embargo Brazil was importing almost 80 percent of its fuel supply,'' notes Mr. Luft, director of the Institute for the Analysis of Global Security. ''Within three decades it cut its dependence by more than half. During that period the Brazilians invested massively in a sugar-based ethanol industry to the degree that about a third of the fuel they use in their vehicles is domestically grown. They also created a fleet that can accommodate this fuel.'' Half the new cars sold this year in Brazil will run on any combination of gasoline and ethanol. ''Bringing hydrocarbons and carbohydrates to live happily together in the same fuel tank,'' he added, ''has not only made Brazil close to energy independence, but has also insulated the Brazilian economy from the harming impact of the current spike in oil prices.''
The new energy bill includes support for corn-based ethanol, but, bowing to the dictates of the U.S. corn and sugar lobbies (which oppose sugar imports), it ignores Brazilian-style sugar-based ethanol, even though it takes much less energy to make and produces more energy than corn-based ethanol. We are ready to import oil from Saudi Arabia but not sugar from Brazil. ....
It seems as though only a big crisis will force our country to override all the cynical lobbies and change our energy usage. I thought 9/11 was that crisis. It sure was for me, but not, it seems, for this White House, Congress or many Americans. Do we really have to wait for something bigger in order to get smarter?
And the world has changed in the past few years. First, the global economic playing field is being leveled, and millions of people who were out of the game -- from China, India and the former Soviet empire -- are now walking onto the field, each dreaming of a house, a car, a toaster and a microwave. As they move from low-energy to high-energy consumers, they are becoming steadily rising competitors with us for oil.
Second, we are in a war. It is a war against open societies mounted by Islamo-fascists, who are nurtured by mosques, charities and madrasas preaching an intolerant brand of Islam and financed by medieval regimes sustained by our oil purchases.
Yes, we are financing both sides in the war on terrorism: our soldiers and the fascist terrorists. George Bush's failure, on the morning after 9/11, to call on Americans to accept a gasoline tax to curb our oil imports was one of the greatest wasted opportunities in U.S. history. ...
Many technologies that could make a difference are already here -- from hybrid engines to ethanol. All that is needed is a gasoline tax of $2 a gallon to get consumers and Detroit to change their behavior and adopt them. As Representative Edward Markey noted, auto fuel economy peaked at 26.5 miles per gallon in 1986, and ''we've been going backward every since'' -- even though we have the technology to change that right now. ''This is not rocket science,'' he rightly noted. ''It's auto mechanics.''
It's also imagination. ''During the 1973 Arab oil embargo Brazil was importing almost 80 percent of its fuel supply,'' notes Mr. Luft, director of the Institute for the Analysis of Global Security. ''Within three decades it cut its dependence by more than half. During that period the Brazilians invested massively in a sugar-based ethanol industry to the degree that about a third of the fuel they use in their vehicles is domestically grown. They also created a fleet that can accommodate this fuel.'' Half the new cars sold this year in Brazil will run on any combination of gasoline and ethanol. ''Bringing hydrocarbons and carbohydrates to live happily together in the same fuel tank,'' he added, ''has not only made Brazil close to energy independence, but has also insulated the Brazilian economy from the harming impact of the current spike in oil prices.''
The new energy bill includes support for corn-based ethanol, but, bowing to the dictates of the U.S. corn and sugar lobbies (which oppose sugar imports), it ignores Brazilian-style sugar-based ethanol, even though it takes much less energy to make and produces more energy than corn-based ethanol. We are ready to import oil from Saudi Arabia but not sugar from Brazil. ....
It seems as though only a big crisis will force our country to override all the cynical lobbies and change our energy usage. I thought 9/11 was that crisis. It sure was for me, but not, it seems, for this White House, Congress or many Americans. Do we really have to wait for something bigger in order to get smarter?
Dumb as We Wanna Be
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
I asked Dr. José Goldemberg, secretary for the environment for São Paulo State and a pioneer of Brazil's ethanol industry, the obvious question: Is the fact that the U.S. has imposed a 54-cents-a-gallon tariff to prevent Americans from importing sugar ethanol from Brazil ''just stupid or really stupid.''
Thanks to pressure from Midwest farmers and agribusinesses, who want to protect the U.S. corn ethanol industry from competition from Brazilian sugar ethanol, we have imposed a stiff tariff to keep it out. We do this even though Brazilian sugar ethanol provides eight times the energy of the fossil fuel used to make it, while American corn ethanol provides only 1.3 times the energy of the fossil fuel used to make it. We do this even though sugar ethanol reduces greenhouses gases more than corn ethanol. And we do this even though sugar cane ethanol can easily be grown in poor tropical countries in Africa or the Caribbean, and could actually help alleviate their poverty.
Yes, you read all this right. We tax imported sugar ethanol, which could finance our poor friends, but we don't tax imported crude oil, which definitely finances our rich enemies. We'd rather power anti-Americans with our energy purchases than promote antipoverty. ...
Ethanol from sugar cane could be a scalable, sustainable alternative -- if we are smart and get rid of silly tariffs, and if Brazil is smart and starts thinking right now about how to expand its sugar cane biofuel industry without harming the environment. ...
Over the past five years, the Amazon has lost 7,700 square miles a year, most of it for cattle grazing, soybean farming and palm oil. A similar expansion for sugar ethanol could destroy the cerrado, the Brazilian savannah, another incredibly species-rich area, and the best place in Brazil to grow more sugar. ...
We have the tools to resolve these conflicts. We can map the lands that need protection for their biodiversity or the environmental benefits they provide rural communities. But sugar farmers, governments and environmentalists need to sit down early -- like now -- to identify those lands and commit the money needed to protect them. Otherwise, we will have a fight over every acre, and sugar ethanol will never realize its potential. That would be really, really stupid.
Thanks to pressure from Midwest farmers and agribusinesses, who want to protect the U.S. corn ethanol industry from competition from Brazilian sugar ethanol, we have imposed a stiff tariff to keep it out. We do this even though Brazilian sugar ethanol provides eight times the energy of the fossil fuel used to make it, while American corn ethanol provides only 1.3 times the energy of the fossil fuel used to make it. We do this even though sugar ethanol reduces greenhouses gases more than corn ethanol. And we do this even though sugar cane ethanol can easily be grown in poor tropical countries in Africa or the Caribbean, and could actually help alleviate their poverty.
Yes, you read all this right. We tax imported sugar ethanol, which could finance our poor friends, but we don't tax imported crude oil, which definitely finances our rich enemies. We'd rather power anti-Americans with our energy purchases than promote antipoverty. ...
Ethanol from sugar cane could be a scalable, sustainable alternative -- if we are smart and get rid of silly tariffs, and if Brazil is smart and starts thinking right now about how to expand its sugar cane biofuel industry without harming the environment. ...
Over the past five years, the Amazon has lost 7,700 square miles a year, most of it for cattle grazing, soybean farming and palm oil. A similar expansion for sugar ethanol could destroy the cerrado, the Brazilian savannah, another incredibly species-rich area, and the best place in Brazil to grow more sugar. ...
We have the tools to resolve these conflicts. We can map the lands that need protection for their biodiversity or the environmental benefits they provide rural communities. But sugar farmers, governments and environmentalists need to sit down early -- like now -- to identify those lands and commit the money needed to protect them. Otherwise, we will have a fight over every acre, and sugar ethanol will never realize its potential. That would be really, really stupid.
#79
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I think this is a great option for those of us who also have a daily beater and can run E85 100% of the time on our evo. I got E85 everywhere here in Texas and 5 minutes from my house.
For all the E85 experts I have some questions, I know the Brazilian government has all their public transport vehicles running this stuff now, but they make it out of sugar cane because that's what crop Brazil produces. I heard that the sugar cane E85 is much better than the corn E85, why is this? What makes it better and does it have better fuel millage? I know Hawaii produces allot of sugar cane, so maybe we should jump on that bandwagon and help American Hawaiian farmers also.
For all the E85 experts I have some questions, I know the Brazilian government has all their public transport vehicles running this stuff now, but they make it out of sugar cane because that's what crop Brazil produces. I heard that the sugar cane E85 is much better than the corn E85, why is this? What makes it better and does it have better fuel millage? I know Hawaii produces allot of sugar cane, so maybe we should jump on that bandwagon and help American Hawaiian farmers also.
While on the subject of quantity of fermentable biomass.... how do sugar beats stack up compared to corn and sugar cane?
Keith
#81
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This is sorta off topic, but how does e85 compare to c16? I would imagine c16 would still make more, but probly not too much. I've searched everywhere and haven't found a back to back dyno run of the two fuels. I'm thinking if it's around 105 octane AND has additional cooling effects it should be pretty close to c16 and better than MS109. Considering MS109 is accually 101 octane, that would make e85 the highest octane unleaded fuel available, don't quote me on that, unless you count e100 which I haven't found much info at all about, other than its closer to 114 octane or so. Anyone have any hard info?
#82
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This is sorta off topic, but how does e85 compare to c16? I would imagine c16 would still make more, but probly not too much. I've searched everywhere and haven't found a back to back dyno run of the two fuels. I'm thinking if it's around 105 octane AND has additional cooling effects it should be pretty close to c16 and better than MS109. Considering MS109 is accually 101 octane, that would make e85 the highest octane unleaded fuel available, don't quote me on that, unless you count e100 which I haven't found much info at all about, other than its closer to 114 octane or so. Anyone have any hard info?
Keith
#84
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I have always throught that C-16 was overkill. I remember back in my Galant VR-4 days people with DMS's would run C-16 if they were running more than 20 psi of boost in the DSM's.... now we run that stock on 91 octane pump gas. Did we actually need C-16 to run 20 psi? Hell no! I don't think anyone has ever actually done a study of what power levels are attainable on different octane fuels. One of the problems with E-85 is that I have heard it's octane quoted as anywhere from 100 to 115 depending on who you ask. It is probably closer to 105 than anything else since that is the most commenly quoted figure.... but I have no real proff of what octane it is. Also, on the AKI scale (MON+RON)/2 MS-109 from VP racing is actually 105 octane (101+109)/2 = 105 so we have a fuel equivelent in octane to the MS-109 at a fraction of the cost.
Keith
Keith
#85
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Keith
#86
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We have absolutely done "testing" with lower grade fuels and then stepping up to C16 and I don't feel C16 is at all over kill. As a matter of fact we are now spending nearly $25 per gallon for fuel that just smokes C16.
My car was tuned on C16, that's how I drive it most of the time. Trent was running some very inexpensive 110 octane fuel. It was so cheap I bought a drum of it. Dumped it in my car and took off. The car knocked so bad I could hear it. I had to pull close to 12 degrees of timing out of the tune. At that point it was not worth the money savings to me to drop that much power.
I've tuned cars on 87, 89, 91, 93, 94 etc. 87 obviously sucks. 93-94 if good quality are the same. Stepping up from a good quality 93-94 to a 100 octane is a waste of time from what I have seen.
When I refer to race gas I am talking about 114+ octane. There is power in fuel.
The E85, I agree with you Keith, 105 seems to be the actual octane rating of the fuel. There is more to the fuel that the octane though. The cooling effect of the fuel is where I feel there is going to be alot of power gains. We have a big build coming in the shop soon that is going to be built and tuned on E85.
As far as using this fuel system or any other one for nitrous. Nitrous doesn't put much of an additional load on the fueling system. You would have to be running a very large does of nitrous to have an effect on your fuel system at all. Back in the day we ran 7's at 174+ mph with our 4G63 powered Eclipse, this was done a 660 cc fuel injector. The extra fueling we needed we got from the nitrous system fuel jet.
My car was tuned on C16, that's how I drive it most of the time. Trent was running some very inexpensive 110 octane fuel. It was so cheap I bought a drum of it. Dumped it in my car and took off. The car knocked so bad I could hear it. I had to pull close to 12 degrees of timing out of the tune. At that point it was not worth the money savings to me to drop that much power.
I've tuned cars on 87, 89, 91, 93, 94 etc. 87 obviously sucks. 93-94 if good quality are the same. Stepping up from a good quality 93-94 to a 100 octane is a waste of time from what I have seen.
When I refer to race gas I am talking about 114+ octane. There is power in fuel.
The E85, I agree with you Keith, 105 seems to be the actual octane rating of the fuel. There is more to the fuel that the octane though. The cooling effect of the fuel is where I feel there is going to be alot of power gains. We have a big build coming in the shop soon that is going to be built and tuned on E85.
As far as using this fuel system or any other one for nitrous. Nitrous doesn't put much of an additional load on the fueling system. You would have to be running a very large does of nitrous to have an effect on your fuel system at all. Back in the day we ran 7's at 174+ mph with our 4G63 powered Eclipse, this was done a 660 cc fuel injector. The extra fueling we needed we got from the nitrous system fuel jet.
#87
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We are not in disagreement here Dave, just looking at it from two different sides of the same issue. My examples above were in objection to Driftkings example where no tunning or boost changes were made. In that situation (and that situation only) I stand by what I said 100%. Now, if you have a professional tunner doing his best for each fuel, the better the fuel the better the result.
I would love to see a HP per octane study done on a highly modified car when tunned to the hilt by a professional optimizing boost, A/F ratio, and timeing for each specific fuel all done on the same exact car, with only changes in fuel and tune.... no physical changes.
Keith
I would love to see a HP per octane study done on a highly modified car when tunned to the hilt by a professional optimizing boost, A/F ratio, and timeing for each specific fuel all done on the same exact car, with only changes in fuel and tune.... no physical changes.
Keith
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-Paul
#90
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I have always throught that C-16 was overkill. I remember back in my Galant VR-4 days people with DMS's would run C-16 if they were running more than 20 psi of boost in the DSM's.... now we run that stock on 91 octane pump gas. Did we actually need C-16 to run 20 psi? Hell no! I don't think anyone has ever actually done a study of what power levels are attainable on different octane fuels. One of the problems with E-85 is that I have heard it's octane quoted as anywhere from 100 to 115 depending on who you ask. It is probably closer to 105 than anything else since that is the most commenly quoted figure.... but I have no real proff of what octane it is. Also, on the AKI scale (MON+RON)/2 MS-109 from VP racing is actually 105 octane (101+109)/2 = 105 so we have a fuel equivelent in octane to the MS-109 at a fraction of the cost.
Keith
Keith