Meth injection a band-aid?
Jan 4, 2007, 07:00 PM
#46
Alright, here comes the redneck response........
I was just having this conversation with a good customer the other day about the build we are doing on his car. He also referenced the Innovate article posted here.
Here's a few things I want to add point on on this subject and some of the things that have been said. I am no engineer, I know nothing about physics, barely graduated high school as a matter of fact. I have broken more bondries with the 4g63 than anyone else, tuned as many 4g63's as anyone else (more I am guessing actually) and I haven't been afraid to try much. With that said my experience is from living, not reading, research or guessing.
First off, 93 or 94 octane fuel with methanol injection being added is still quite a bit short of the performance you can get from C16. As a matter of fact unless you are injecting SO much methanol that the car is basically running off of it rather than the pump gas, it isn't even close to the performance you can get from C16.
Second, I have had more than a few customers that have insisted that I tune their cars with a water/methanol mix. Everyone of them sucked. The power was not what it could have been on a straight methanol injection tune. I have proven this more than once using the same car when the customer "cried" at his results.
Third, I do not feel alky injection is a band aid. It is a great way to run high boost and much higher HP levels than you could on straight pump gas. ALTHOUGH I do feel running high boost with an alky kit with a stock computer is fairly risky. Running it with a standalone such as the AEM is almost 100% safe as you can set up the AEM to only make more power IF the alky is spraying.
Fourth, many feel the big gain from using the water is the additional cooling effect from the properties of the water. I will agree with this and also agree that even the methanol will cool the intake charge. BUT I feel that the only time that this additional cooling effect has a large effect on how the car can be tuned is if the FMIC isn't up to the task it is suppose to be doing or if you are using an alky injection kit on a non intercooled application.
Fifth point. The conversation I had with my customer the other day turned to this cooling effect that the water/meth has. I told him if the intercooler is really good this extra cooling, while helpful, isn't nearly as important as many are promoting it to me, in my opinion. For example I pulled up a log of our black shop car. With the car running A LOT OF BOOST the car started a pass at 79 degree F and at the end of the pass was only 96 degrees F. With 96 degree intake temps I am not too concerned. Yes, I know, if I dropped them even further supposedly I am suppose to gain 1% per 7 degree drop. I have not seen that in all the testing I have done on the dyno and it is a very easy thing to monitor. So I throw that "fact" out the window.
Use my information if you like. If you don't like it, keep your negative comments to yourself as I don't want your opinion on how dumb you think I am. EVOM has been getting on my nerves with all the genius's. I am simply giving some input I hope someone finds useful.
It's what I do as a "car guy".
I was just having this conversation with a good customer the other day about the build we are doing on his car. He also referenced the Innovate article posted here.
Here's a few things I want to add point on on this subject and some of the things that have been said. I am no engineer, I know nothing about physics, barely graduated high school as a matter of fact. I have broken more bondries with the 4g63 than anyone else, tuned as many 4g63's as anyone else (more I am guessing actually) and I haven't been afraid to try much. With that said my experience is from living, not reading, research or guessing.
First off, 93 or 94 octane fuel with methanol injection being added is still quite a bit short of the performance you can get from C16. As a matter of fact unless you are injecting SO much methanol that the car is basically running off of it rather than the pump gas, it isn't even close to the performance you can get from C16.
Second, I have had more than a few customers that have insisted that I tune their cars with a water/methanol mix. Everyone of them sucked. The power was not what it could have been on a straight methanol injection tune. I have proven this more than once using the same car when the customer "cried" at his results.
Third, I do not feel alky injection is a band aid. It is a great way to run high boost and much higher HP levels than you could on straight pump gas. ALTHOUGH I do feel running high boost with an alky kit with a stock computer is fairly risky. Running it with a standalone such as the AEM is almost 100% safe as you can set up the AEM to only make more power IF the alky is spraying.
Fourth, many feel the big gain from using the water is the additional cooling effect from the properties of the water. I will agree with this and also agree that even the methanol will cool the intake charge. BUT I feel that the only time that this additional cooling effect has a large effect on how the car can be tuned is if the FMIC isn't up to the task it is suppose to be doing or if you are using an alky injection kit on a non intercooled application.
Fifth point. The conversation I had with my customer the other day turned to this cooling effect that the water/meth has. I told him if the intercooler is really good this extra cooling, while helpful, isn't nearly as important as many are promoting it to me, in my opinion. For example I pulled up a log of our black shop car. With the car running A LOT OF BOOST the car started a pass at 79 degree F and at the end of the pass was only 96 degrees F. With 96 degree intake temps I am not too concerned. Yes, I know, if I dropped them even further supposedly I am suppose to gain 1% per 7 degree drop. I have not seen that in all the testing I have done on the dyno and it is a very easy thing to monitor. So I throw that "fact" out the window.
Use my information if you like. If you don't like it, keep your negative comments to yourself as I don't want your opinion on how dumb you think I am. EVOM has been getting on my nerves with all the genius's. I am simply giving some input I hope someone finds useful.
It's what I do as a "car guy".
Jan 4, 2007, 07:21 PM
#47
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David,
how much more power were you able to extract out of these cars you tuned on 100% MeOH Vs. 50/50 mix?
Also what AFR do you tune the cars on 50/50? nice if you can remember the nozzle size too
thx!
how much more power were you able to extract out of these cars you tuned on 100% MeOH Vs. 50/50 mix?
Also what AFR do you tune the cars on 50/50? nice if you can remember the nozzle size too
thx!
Last edited by SlowCar; Jan 4, 2007 at 07:36 PM.
Jan 5, 2007, 07:10 AM
#48
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let me know. I'll buy you a new EVO if you can figure it out.
Jan 5, 2007, 08:18 AM
#49
The power I was able to gain depended on the build of the car. Atleast double what I gained from meth/water. So if the car made 300 whp on 93 octane and then made 320 on meth/water, I'd say it made close to 340 on straight methanol.
The AFR's I tune a car at very. Mid to low 11:1's generally.
The AFR's I tune a car at very. Mid to low 11:1's generally.
Jan 5, 2007, 08:32 AM
#50
I didn't make this up, this stuff was heavily researched in the late 40s and early 50s and there are a number of scientific articles describing water injection and how it works.
The other comparison wasn't to digestion it was to oxidative phosphorylation and it is a classic too.
When I was researching water injection a few years ago I thought it was kinda interesting that the water is chemically active in the process, before I learned that I thought it just cools and vaporizes but I was wrong.
The other comparison wasn't to digestion it was to oxidative phosphorylation and it is a classic too.
When I was researching water injection a few years ago I thought it was kinda interesting that the water is chemically active in the process, before I learned that I thought it just cools and vaporizes but I was wrong.
It should be noted that there are certain engines in development that indeed use water as a fuel source, however the water undergoes the "electrolysis" process to seperate the hydrogen + oxygen atoms before combustion occurs.
Last edited by sonicnofadz; Jan 5, 2007 at 08:40 AM.
Jan 5, 2007, 08:45 AM
#51
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The power I was able to gain depended on the build of the car. Atleast double what I gained from meth/water. So if the car made 300 whp on 93 octane and then made 320 on meth/water, I'd say it made close to 340 on straight methanol.
The AFR's I tune a car at very. Mid to low 11:1's generally.
The AFR's I tune a car at very. Mid to low 11:1's generally.
Jan 5, 2007, 08:57 AM
#52
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I would love to see any modern scientific article state that "water" chemically reacts with high heat (or pressure) lol. OK try this, take a MAP GAS blow torch (really f'in hot) and try torching some water. Do you think it will evaporate or burn? Water is almost a completely 100% inert compound. It will not react with the combustion process directly but it will absorb heat to cool things down a bit. If what you are saying is true (the oxygen from water adds to the combustion process) then why don't won't just use water as fuel and solve the world energy crisis? Please go ask your chemistry teacher this absurd question and you will surely be laughed at.
It should be noted that there are certain engines in development that indeed use water as a fuel source, however the water undergoes the "electrolysis" process to seperate the hydrogen + oxygen atoms before combustion occurs.
It should be noted that there are certain engines in development that indeed use water as a fuel source, however the water undergoes the "electrolysis" process to seperate the hydrogen + oxygen atoms before combustion occurs.
doesnt seem likely to happen in a combustion engine w/o the presence of a catalyst
Jan 5, 2007, 08:59 AM
#53
We only use 100% methonal and our standard kit jet is 15gph. 33-34psi it attainable on stock turbo with our configuration with no knock.
There is very little risk on the stock ECU with the safeguards we put in place in our kit setups. Boost is cut in any pre-programmed state of caution.
When coupled with our MAFTPro map switching option, the map only switches upon spray on of the meth and in any case of "caution" AFR/EGT etc, it switches back to the standard pump gas boost and map regardless of if the meth is still spraying or not. This adds another layer of safety.
There is very little risk on the stock ECU with the safeguards we put in place in our kit setups. Boost is cut in any pre-programmed state of caution.
When coupled with our MAFTPro map switching option, the map only switches upon spray on of the meth and in any case of "caution" AFR/EGT etc, it switches back to the standard pump gas boost and map regardless of if the meth is still spraying or not. This adds another layer of safety.
Jan 5, 2007, 09:12 AM
#54
Neither water nor methanol function primarily to cool the air charge temp. That's the job of the IC. Water absorbs heat during the combustion process, methanol is a cooler burning, high octane fuel.
This is incorrect. Water does not serve as an oxygen additive (like nitrous). If it did, its tremendous oxygen content would cause the engine to run so hot that water injection would be impractical (like oxygen), nevermind that the Earth would have blown up long ago from water being ignited all over the planet.
Biological mechanisms don't require (much) heat for oxidative processes because specialized enzymes dramatically lower the energy of activation for the reaction. This cannot be compared with the workings of an internal combustion engine, possibly because enzymes were created by God, while engines are the pathetically inefficient tools of man.
This is incorrect. Water does not participate directly in combustion. Throwing water into the cylinder is like throwing a bucket of ice into the middle of a gangbang. It instantly removes heat and slows the process. In the case of internal combustion, it retards the uncontrolled flame front that signals the onset of detonation. Water is purely an anti-detonant.
Methanol is essentially a partially oxygenated, high octane fuel additive that's easy to use. It burns cooler than gasoline, but it doesn't function the same as water inside the cylinder. Methanol does participate directly in the reaction (obviously), and this is why the addition of methanol significantly alters the AFR and requires retuning.
Claiming that the injection of an appropriate fluid isn't beneficial is just an example of preferring to play the denial card as opposed to admitting ignorance.
Biological mechanisms don't require (much) heat for oxidative processes because specialized enzymes dramatically lower the energy of activation for the reaction. This cannot be compared with the workings of an internal combustion engine, possibly because enzymes were created by God, while engines are the pathetically inefficient tools of man.
Methanol is essentially a partially oxygenated, high octane fuel additive that's easy to use. It burns cooler than gasoline, but it doesn't function the same as water inside the cylinder. Methanol does participate directly in the reaction (obviously), and this is why the addition of methanol significantly alters the AFR and requires retuning.
Claiming that the injection of an appropriate fluid isn't beneficial is just an example of preferring to play the denial card as opposed to admitting ignorance.
Last edited by Ted B; Jan 5, 2007 at 09:16 AM.
Jan 5, 2007, 09:38 AM
#55
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Neither water nor methanol function primarily to cool the air charge temp. That's the job of the IC. Water absorbs heat during the combustion process, methanol is a cooler burning, high octane fuel.
This is incorrect. Water does not serve as an oxygen additive (like nitrous). If it did, its tremendous oxygen content would cause the engine to run so hot that water injection would be impractical (like oxygen), nevermind that the Earth would have blown up long ago from water being ignited all over the planet.
Biological mechanisms don't require (much) heat for oxidative processes because specialized enzymes dramatically lower the energy of activation for the reaction. This cannot be compared with the workings of an internal combustion engine, possibly because enzymes were created by God, while engines are the pathetically inefficient tools of man.
This is incorrect. Water does not participate directly in combustion. Throwing water into the cylinder is like throwing a bucket of ice into the middle of a gangbang. It instantly removes heat and slows the process. In the case of internal combustion, it retards the uncontrolled flame front that signals the onset of detonation. Water is purely an anti-detonant.
Methanol is essentially a partially oxygenated, high octane fuel additive that's easy to use. It burns cooler than gasoline, but it doesn't function the same as water inside the cylinder. Methanol does participate directly in the reaction (obviously), and this is why the addition of methanol significantly alters the AFR and requires retuning.
Claiming that the injection of an appropriate fluid isn't beneficial is just an example of preferring to play the denial card as opposed to admitting ignorance.
This is incorrect. Water does not serve as an oxygen additive (like nitrous). If it did, its tremendous oxygen content would cause the engine to run so hot that water injection would be impractical (like oxygen), nevermind that the Earth would have blown up long ago from water being ignited all over the planet.
Biological mechanisms don't require (much) heat for oxidative processes because specialized enzymes dramatically lower the energy of activation for the reaction. This cannot be compared with the workings of an internal combustion engine, possibly because enzymes were created by God, while engines are the pathetically inefficient tools of man.
This is incorrect. Water does not participate directly in combustion. Throwing water into the cylinder is like throwing a bucket of ice into the middle of a gangbang. It instantly removes heat and slows the process. In the case of internal combustion, it retards the uncontrolled flame front that signals the onset of detonation. Water is purely an anti-detonant.
Methanol is essentially a partially oxygenated, high octane fuel additive that's easy to use. It burns cooler than gasoline, but it doesn't function the same as water inside the cylinder. Methanol does participate directly in the reaction (obviously), and this is why the addition of methanol significantly alters the AFR and requires retuning.
Claiming that the injection of an appropriate fluid isn't beneficial is just an example of preferring to play the denial card as opposed to admitting ignorance.
Based upon my vast hands on experience tuning water , alcohol , and water / alcohol injection systems on Evos I want to make a few observations which basically duplicate those of Mr. Buschur
Water does adsorb heat and help stabilize a combustion process
Its effects on turbo evos are NOMINAL
I have noted slight ability to run leaner and a bit more timing
Again water only injection is a mild tuning aide which most people will hardly notice on an evo
Straight alcohol injection is a dramatic and significant aide to tuning for several resasons
1 - It raises the effective octane of the fuel
2 - It contains oxygen
3 - It can be run richer than gasoline at ideal a/f ratios which is great for lowering the temps in the combustion chamber while keeping you at an ideal a/f for max power
4 - It supliments and adds fuel to cars that are on smallish injectors and fuel systems
For all these reasons tuning on 100% alcohol injected on top of pump gas can yield tuning results approaching that of staight race gas
I have noted that 50 / 50 % water and alcohol mix is NOT nearly as effective as 100% alcohol
Finally - the new Perrin w/a injection system incorptrates advanced fail safe and flow metering technology which combined with a boost solinoid can render a alchy system 100% fail safe
Kindest regards
Jan 5, 2007, 09:42 AM
#56
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Final thought
I have the largest Buschur fmic that can be fit on a evo and my air temps stay so low its just nuts
With this said - I still inject meth in my post fmic TB - why ? To lower the charge temps even more ! Even on race gas - yes !
Certain race cars use meth injection right in the turbo compressor
There is no such thing as a intake air temp being too low - in fact the colder and denser the air the better
I have the largest Buschur fmic that can be fit on a evo and my air temps stay so low its just nuts
With this said - I still inject meth in my post fmic TB - why ? To lower the charge temps even more ! Even on race gas - yes !
Certain race cars use meth injection right in the turbo compressor
There is no such thing as a intake air temp being too low - in fact the colder and denser the air the better
Jan 5, 2007, 11:47 AM
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Great posts guys, This is all need to know stuff before i purchase a meth kit.
A little off topic but, David have you guys thought about adding any failsafes to your kit? I know that when hooked up to the AEM it will work as a Failsafe as you stated before, but I'm just curious if you have thought of anything else.
A little off topic but, David have you guys thought about adding any failsafes to your kit? I know that when hooked up to the AEM it will work as a Failsafe as you stated before, but I'm just curious if you have thought of anything else.
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