The thoughts of having a 150 mph trap speed "green" EVO.
Feb 12, 2007 | 08:32 PM
#31
The problem I'm seeing with E85, is that to truly max this fuel out (in most cases) you need to run 4 x 1600 injectors if not more.
Obviously that poses some driveability problems when running 1600's as your main injectors, although the driveability problems I've heard aren't as apparent as they are when running gasoline.
The best compromise would be a 1000-1200cc injector, to behave very well via daily driveability, and still be able to put down some decent power on E85. The problem here is there is usually power left on the table, but your injectors are limiting you. This would be a great all around street setup.
So what's the next step?
4 x 1000cc injectors. Maybe a 1600 in the charge pipe? That would give you great cooling, and enough extra power capacity to run some decent boost on E85, but I still don't think you'd be nearing C16 numbers. Not to mention complicating things quite a bit, although not a huge deal for anyone serious.
Now the proper setup, would be dual rails, with 4 x 1000's and 4 x 1600's, and hell, maybe a 1600 or two in the charge pipe for great cooling. But now you have to look at the total investment, and whether it's worth it. That extra $600 (LOW figure) to run that extra fuel rail could be used to buy a 55gallon drum of c16.
If you weren't trying to max the fuel or the turbo (given a Gt35r, or larger), maybe the "best" setup would just be 1000cc main injectors, and still run c16 at the track.
Then you have to think about how E85 can vary and that could dramatically alter your state of "tune" on the car.
David, what are your thoughts on what I mentioned above?
Obviously that poses some driveability problems when running 1600's as your main injectors, although the driveability problems I've heard aren't as apparent as they are when running gasoline.
The best compromise would be a 1000-1200cc injector, to behave very well via daily driveability, and still be able to put down some decent power on E85. The problem here is there is usually power left on the table, but your injectors are limiting you. This would be a great all around street setup.
So what's the next step?
4 x 1000cc injectors. Maybe a 1600 in the charge pipe? That would give you great cooling, and enough extra power capacity to run some decent boost on E85, but I still don't think you'd be nearing C16 numbers. Not to mention complicating things quite a bit, although not a huge deal for anyone serious.
Now the proper setup, would be dual rails, with 4 x 1000's and 4 x 1600's, and hell, maybe a 1600 or two in the charge pipe for great cooling. But now you have to look at the total investment, and whether it's worth it. That extra $600 (LOW figure) to run that extra fuel rail could be used to buy a 55gallon drum of c16.
If you weren't trying to max the fuel or the turbo (given a Gt35r, or larger), maybe the "best" setup would just be 1000cc main injectors, and still run c16 at the track.
Then you have to think about how E85 can vary and that could dramatically alter your state of "tune" on the car.
David, what are your thoughts on what I mentioned above?
If it really got down to it, you could run 4 extra injectors and have them start spraying at a certain amount of boost. which wouldn't change driveablity an extreme amount, but it would definelly be costly, and hard to tune.
Feb 12, 2007 | 08:32 PM
#32
i hear you, as with any newer technology, the price of making it (energy costs as well as monetary costs) will eventually fall. theres only really two sources of good info on E85, the governments (for E85) and those against it. me, personally, i dont think its terribly worth the trouble of converting to it, its energy content is far lower than gasoline, and that is the main reason it is less prone to knock. once we figure out a way to not waste petroluem just making the alternative, then i will be a believer in it, but as for now i dont see E85 going too big.
But as far as this thread goes, I'd much rather be seeing people using E85 than leaded gasoline. Just from a health and environmental standpoint.
Feb 12, 2007 | 08:35 PM
#33
Well it definitely has a long road ahead to see if it catches on. Innovation happens a lot faster when consumer and government money starts being thrown at it. The biggest short term benefit I see is reducing the dependence on foreign (especially Middle East) oil. But as far as reducing greenhouse gas emissions go, its not really the answer.
But as far as this thread goes, I'd much rather be seeing people using E85 than leaded gasoline. Just from a health and environmental standpoint.
But as far as this thread goes, I'd much rather be seeing people using E85 than leaded gasoline. Just from a health and environmental standpoint.
makes me feel like superman!!! trying to save the planet
Feb 12, 2007 | 09:21 PM
#34
This was a from a quote sheet I got from them this summer
Leaded fuels: 55gal. drum/5gal. cans - Price per gallon
Citgo 110 - 3.50/4.10
Sunoco Cam II 110 - 3.95/4.55
Torco Mach 110 - 3.85/4.45
Sunoco Cam II 112 - 4.50/5.10
Torco Mach 112 - 4.45/5.05
Sunoco Cam II 116 - 6.35/6.95
VP Red 105 - 5.29/5.89
VP C12 108 - 5.50/6.10
VP C14 114 - 6.90/7.50
VP C16 116 - 7.50/8.10
Racing Methanol - 2.15/2.75 (I'm not sure if this is the same stuff used for alcohol injection systems)
Unleaded fuels: 55gal. drum/5gal. cans - Price per gallon
Sunoco No Lead 100 - 3.90/4.50
Sunoco No Lead 104 - 4.00/4.60
Feb 12, 2007 | 09:25 PM
#35
The problem I'm seeing with E85, is that to truly max this fuel out (in most cases) you need to run 4 x 1600 injectors if not more.
Obviously that poses some driveability problems when running 1600's as your main injectors, although the driveability problems I've heard aren't as apparent as they are when running gasoline.
The best compromise would be a 1000-1200cc injector, to behave very well via daily driveability, and still be able to put down some decent power on E85. The problem here is there is usually power left on the table, but your injectors are limiting you. This would be a great all around street setup.
So what's the next step?
4 x 1000cc injectors. Maybe a 1600 in the charge pipe? That would give you great cooling, and enough extra power capacity to run some decent boost on E85, but I still don't think you'd be nearing C16 numbers. Not to mention complicating things quite a bit, although not a huge deal for anyone serious.
Now the proper setup, would be dual rails, with 4 x 1000's and 4 x 1600's, and hell, maybe a 1600 or two in the charge pipe for great cooling. But now you have to look at the total investment, and whether it's worth it. That extra $600 (LOW figure) to run that extra fuel rail could be used to buy a 55gallon drum of c16.
If you weren't trying to max the fuel or the turbo (given a Gt35r, or larger), maybe the "best" setup would just be 1000cc main injectors, and still run c16 at the track.
Then you have to think about how E85 can vary and that could dramatically alter your state of "tune" on the car.
David, what are your thoughts on what I mentioned above?
Obviously that poses some driveability problems when running 1600's as your main injectors, although the driveability problems I've heard aren't as apparent as they are when running gasoline.
The best compromise would be a 1000-1200cc injector, to behave very well via daily driveability, and still be able to put down some decent power on E85. The problem here is there is usually power left on the table, but your injectors are limiting you. This would be a great all around street setup.
So what's the next step?
4 x 1000cc injectors. Maybe a 1600 in the charge pipe? That would give you great cooling, and enough extra power capacity to run some decent boost on E85, but I still don't think you'd be nearing C16 numbers. Not to mention complicating things quite a bit, although not a huge deal for anyone serious.
Now the proper setup, would be dual rails, with 4 x 1000's and 4 x 1600's, and hell, maybe a 1600 or two in the charge pipe for great cooling. But now you have to look at the total investment, and whether it's worth it. That extra $600 (LOW figure) to run that extra fuel rail could be used to buy a 55gallon drum of c16.
If you weren't trying to max the fuel or the turbo (given a Gt35r, or larger), maybe the "best" setup would just be 1000cc main injectors, and still run c16 at the track.
Then you have to think about how E85 can vary and that could dramatically alter your state of "tune" on the car.
David, what are your thoughts on what I mentioned above?
Feb 12, 2007 | 09:30 PM
#36
theyre gas prices are cheaper than getting it by the 5 gallon drum.
cheers!
Feb 12, 2007 | 10:10 PM
#38
Also, when he ran 9s im pretty sure he was using race gas.
Using race gas allows a bit more room (volume of fuel) compared to 93 pump.
Normally when you dump in race gas, the a/f will go 1-1.5 points richer, meaning you can lean out alot more then normal pump gas..
so comparing race gas to e85, its even higher then 30 percent more fuel..
I will have alot of test results at the end of the month.
Using race gas allows a bit more room (volume of fuel) compared to 93 pump.
Normally when you dump in race gas, the a/f will go 1-1.5 points richer, meaning you can lean out alot more then normal pump gas..
so comparing race gas to e85, its even higher then 30 percent more fuel..
I will have alot of test results at the end of the month.
Feb 13, 2007 | 08:53 AM
#39
David, I'm impressed with your willingness to try something different. I have no doubt you will go fast with E85, and it should be worth some good press.
As far as some of the questions posed above about the "green-ness" of ethanol, the consensus on energy balance seems to be that each unit of energy put into corn production and distillation of ethanol results in about 1.34 units of output. So, to get 1.34 units of energy in your tank, you have to burn up 1.00 units of something else. (Source: Wikipedia article).
(Using other plants is much better -- Brazil gets something like seven times the ethanol yield from sugarcane, and switchgrass is a possible fuel plant that we could grow here in the U.S., and it has a better yield than corn.)
That means that corn-based ethanol has to have substantial government subsidies to make it anywhere near economically competitive with gasoline -- a unit of energy spent getting oil out of the ground results in 15 units of gasoline energy. (Source: other Wikipedia artcle) Farm subsidies are a whole other discussion that I won't get into, but ethanol is cheaper than it otherwise would be because the U.S. government subsidizes it.
And yes, as mentioned above, E85 has 35% less energy per unit of mass, so your MPG will be down by 1/3, and you're going to have to fill the tank that much more often.
If you're looking at energy independence -- that is, you don't want to be beholden to oil produced in unstable, U.S.-hating parts of the world, ethanol is good. The energy you use to produce it can come from home-grown coal or natural gas.
But if you're just looking to be good to the environment -- reducing carbon emissions -- I'd say corn-based ethanol is not so great at this point.
--Dan
Mach V
MachEVO.com
As far as some of the questions posed above about the "green-ness" of ethanol, the consensus on energy balance seems to be that each unit of energy put into corn production and distillation of ethanol results in about 1.34 units of output. So, to get 1.34 units of energy in your tank, you have to burn up 1.00 units of something else. (Source: Wikipedia article).
(Using other plants is much better -- Brazil gets something like seven times the ethanol yield from sugarcane, and switchgrass is a possible fuel plant that we could grow here in the U.S., and it has a better yield than corn.)
That means that corn-based ethanol has to have substantial government subsidies to make it anywhere near economically competitive with gasoline -- a unit of energy spent getting oil out of the ground results in 15 units of gasoline energy. (Source: other Wikipedia artcle) Farm subsidies are a whole other discussion that I won't get into, but ethanol is cheaper than it otherwise would be because the U.S. government subsidizes it.
And yes, as mentioned above, E85 has 35% less energy per unit of mass, so your MPG will be down by 1/3, and you're going to have to fill the tank that much more often.
If you're looking at energy independence -- that is, you don't want to be beholden to oil produced in unstable, U.S.-hating parts of the world, ethanol is good. The energy you use to produce it can come from home-grown coal or natural gas.
But if you're just looking to be good to the environment -- reducing carbon emissions -- I'd say corn-based ethanol is not so great at this point.
--Dan
Mach V
MachEVO.com
Feb 13, 2007 | 10:32 AM
#40
dsmu4ria,
My thoughts on your post is a question directed to you. What exactly do you consider good power?
I just made 509 whp on a stock shortblock with E85. I'd consider that pretty good power. Consider the fact my car ran 9.97 at 542 whp on our dyno.
This was done a single set of 1,000 cc injectors and our double pumper.
Doing math, and I am known to make some mistakes;0), if I can safely make 509 whp on a set of 1,000cc injectors that means I can make 20% more on 1200'cc injectors, giving me the ability to make 610 whp on our dyno.
Curt's car made 640 whp on our dyno and ran 9.33 at 153 mph.
Because the car needs more fuel to run on E85, runnning the 1200 cc injectors at idle and part throttle on the E85 will actually make the car run very nice.
My thoughts on your post is a question directed to you. What exactly do you consider good power?
I just made 509 whp on a stock shortblock with E85. I'd consider that pretty good power. Consider the fact my car ran 9.97 at 542 whp on our dyno.
This was done a single set of 1,000 cc injectors and our double pumper.
Doing math, and I am known to make some mistakes;0), if I can safely make 509 whp on a set of 1,000cc injectors that means I can make 20% more on 1200'cc injectors, giving me the ability to make 610 whp on our dyno.
Curt's car made 640 whp on our dyno and ran 9.33 at 153 mph.
Because the car needs more fuel to run on E85, runnning the 1200 cc injectors at idle and part throttle on the E85 will actually make the car run very nice.
Feb 13, 2007 | 11:48 AM
#41
Evolving Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
From: NE Ohio
dsmu4ia,
My thoughts on your post is a question directed to you. What exactly do you consider good power?
I just made 509 whp on a stock shortblock with E85. I'd consider that pretty good power. Consider the fact my car ran 9.97 at 542 whp on our dyno.
This was done a single set of 1,000 cc injectors and our double pumper.
Doing math, and I am known to make some mistakes;0), if I can safely make 509 whp on a set of 1,000cc injectors that means I can make 20% more on 1200'cc injectors, giving me the ability to make 610 whp on our dyno.
Curt's car made 640 whp on our dyno and ran 9.33 at 153 mph.
Because the car needs more fuel to run on E85, runnning the 1200 cc injectors at idle and part throttle on the E85 will actually make the car run very nice.
My thoughts on your post is a question directed to you. What exactly do you consider good power?
I just made 509 whp on a stock shortblock with E85. I'd consider that pretty good power. Consider the fact my car ran 9.97 at 542 whp on our dyno.
This was done a single set of 1,000 cc injectors and our double pumper.
Doing math, and I am known to make some mistakes;0), if I can safely make 509 whp on a set of 1,000cc injectors that means I can make 20% more on 1200'cc injectors, giving me the ability to make 610 whp on our dyno.
Curt's car made 640 whp on our dyno and ran 9.33 at 153 mph.
Because the car needs more fuel to run on E85, runnning the 1200 cc injectors at idle and part throttle on the E85 will actually make the car run very nice.
"Good Power" was directed towards your specific car, and what power/injector it would require to run 150mph on E85.
You ran 142mph at 542whp on Gasoline. I was figuring for your car to go 150mph (+8mph) you'd need closer to 640whp which I didn't think E85 could support on 1200's. I guess with some lightening, and a more aggressive tire/wheel (something light like the slicks Curt ran) 609whp could get you very close to the 150mph level
Curt ran 153mph with a light evo, his amazing driving, and all the other secrets he has up his sleeve.
Basically my questions were directed toward injector sizing, and what you thought maximum power could be without taking the plunge up to 1600's and suffering the driveability flaws that come with that size injector with the AEM.
Feb 13, 2007 | 11:52 AM
#42
Dave,
Very interesting topic. Since my job is to drill oil and natural gas wells then this is a topic that I would like to see the results from. I have also had the chance to work with alot of people that have been on the well sites in Canada that you have mentioned and you are right it is a very complex procedure. Im not sure of the different "gas" that is extracted from the wells there to the one that I am even currently on that is also extracted from coal seams with inlay with sand seams.
Very interesting topic. Since my job is to drill oil and natural gas wells then this is a topic that I would like to see the results from. I have also had the chance to work with alot of people that have been on the well sites in Canada that you have mentioned and you are right it is a very complex procedure. Im not sure of the different "gas" that is extracted from the wells there to the one that I am even currently on that is also extracted from coal seams with inlay with sand seams.
Feb 13, 2007 | 01:40 PM
#43
Actually a set of 1600 cc injectors on E85 may very well run extremely good and I didn't think about it until I read your response. I was not taking your questions as an attack, I was simply asking what you thought was good power. Now I see what you meant.
Now that I just did the math, a 1600 cc injector, I bet would run quite well on E85 fuel. A 1600 cc injector would give us the ability to make about 800 whp on our dyno on E85.................very interesting.............
Gonna have to get me some of dem dar corn squeezin's!
Now that I just did the math, a 1600 cc injector, I bet would run quite well on E85 fuel. A 1600 cc injector would give us the ability to make about 800 whp on our dyno on E85.................very interesting.............
Gonna have to get me some of dem dar corn squeezin's!
Feb 13, 2007 | 03:05 PM
#44
Also, when he ran 9s im pretty sure he was using race gas.
Using race gas allows a bit more room (volume of fuel) compared to 93 pump.
Normally when you dump in race gas, the a/f will go 1-1.5 points richer, meaning you can lean out alot more then normal pump gas..
so comparing race gas to e85, its even higher then 30 percent more fuel..
I will have alot of test results at the end of the month.
Using race gas allows a bit more room (volume of fuel) compared to 93 pump.
Normally when you dump in race gas, the a/f will go 1-1.5 points richer, meaning you can lean out alot more then normal pump gas..
so comparing race gas to e85, its even higher then 30 percent more fuel..
I will have alot of test results at the end of the month.
Feb 13, 2007 | 05:15 PM
#45