David Buschur

iTrader: (53)

I think you need to look at the entire package of what we have done, the undertray, eliminating the two large vent holes in the fascia, the rear diffuser and for the black car the rear wing we added. While I agree with you that what we have done is not enough for someone trying to glue a road race car to the track it did make a HUGE improvement in traction and stability on our drag car and I feel it would make a noticeable improvement on a road race car.

I am of course not trying to do anything to increase drag on our drag cars as I want them as fast as they can be. However part of the reason we started this project was to also improve the control of our black drag car as it was all over the track the way it was before. Now the car is running dead straight.

trinydex

iTrader: (12)

i agree, that's what i was trying to point out. you put together a simple package that can service a large percentage of people who need solutions.

one thing to keep in mind: all downforce comes at the cost of drag. there is no way to redirect air without costing horsepower. redirecting air is the only way to make virtual weight, the only other way is to add real weight... that's worse.

griceiv

iTrader: (2)

What you say is not always true when you look the whole picture. The vortex generators on the roof of the evo are a perfect example of reducing drag and increasing downforce on the whole car. Yes the VG's by themself create drag, but they address flow problems on other parts of the car that reduce the total drag.

And what the hell is virtual weight?

trinydex

iTrader: (12)

vortex generators do not increase or create downforce. they also create some drag, the drag they reduce downstream is is what you're going after. the wing that creates downforce does create drag.

your statement is really unfounded. what you're suggesting is that you can get something for nothing... that is not the case. even if you were to reap down force benefits from a vortex generator solely from readhereing seperated flow on the tail end of the car the downforce device would be the entire car (in a wing shape, think lots of front caster) and that CERTAINLY makes drag.

virtual weight is weight that is not induced by mass. instead primarily from moving through a fluid with force producing devices such as wings.

TearItUpSports

iTrader: (2)

A rear spoiler does not create downforce. A spoiler gets in the path of air that would come around the rear of the car and create upforce.
A car's rear spoiler in most cases behaves nothing like an airplane wing.

griceiv

iTrader: (2)

...isn't that exactly what i said?

Unfounded? increasing the efficiency of a vehicles aerodynamics is an entire industry. What i suggested was that you can add parts to the car and realize an overall reduction in drag and an overall increase in downforce (in some cases at the same time). I think we all realize the primary purpose of the VG's is to reduce lift generated by the car's body, but in doing so it also reduces the drag associated with creating that lift. I'm not exactly sure what relation the front suspension geometry has with respect to drag.

lol

TearItUpSports

iTrader: (2)

This term is also known as Acceleration

Force = Mass * Acceleration

Edit: corrected from below because i am being dumb today.

Weight is a type of Force specifically the Force due to gravity.

The force from an airplane wing is known as lift. If lift > weight you fly.

griceiv

iTrader: (2)

close.

weight = mass * acceleration (like gravity)

weight is just a force due to gravity acting on a mass.


man i'm still laughing when i read that statement.

trinydex

iTrader: (12)

THIS is what you originally said.

THERE IS NO MAKING DOWNFORCE WITHOUT CREATING DRAG PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD DAWT DAWT DAWT

i did not say you cannot REFINE your down force to minimize drag. i said that there is no way to create downforce that isn't already existing without creating drag.

alread existing downforce inhibted by lift... is not creating new downforce.

trinydex

iTrader: (12)

wow you want to come into this thread and talk semantics???? what the **** would you have me call it then??????? virtual force?????? no... it's REAL FORCE. the fact is that it's ACTING LIKE WEIGHT CUZ YOU ENGINEERED IT TO DO SO... HENCE.... virtual.... weight. becuase the weight is not CAUSED by mass... jah?

trinydex

iTrader: (12)

to elaborate on this peice of **** debate allow me to explain.

if you have a perfectly flat sheet of unbendable material which is also conveniently infinitely thin, and has no surface friction, sitting longitunidally and parallel to a perfectly unperturbed flow there is NO FORCE PRODUCED.

once you present some finite cross sectional area to the flow, there is a force produced.

if we all realize that the primary purpose of the vg is to reduce lift then we are all wrong. the primary objective of the vortex generator is to make the wing work better. the wing's primary purpose is to produce downforce and "reduce lift."

the vortex generator works PRIMARILY BECAUSE it reduces the drag around the car. it readhears flow to the back of the car, inadvertantly turning the flow downward, INCREASING the wing's exposure to flow.

vg with no wing equals slightly better aerodynamics... no downforce or little downforce. it's there for the wing... not to make downforce.

Erik@MIL.SPEC

iTrader: (94)

Spoken exactly like someone who majored in physics

trinydex

iTrader: (12)

i know hahahahahaha

griceiv

iTrader: (2)

let me be real short and to the point here.

To which I responded,
Translation. You can add parts to the car that will redirect the air and NOT cost you horsepower.

That's all. All this other crap you're going off about, while true, is completely unrelated to the point I was trying to make. So lets put this "chewbaca defense" to rest.

griceiv

iTrader: (2)

PS. If you really have a physics degree and you're using the term "virtual weight" I need to find out what school you went to...cause damn