Full-race's new toys
Jul 22, 2007, 04:19 PM
#167
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This kit confused me a bit,
I was going to get one and go with a 35R, but reading how much better its going to spool , i'm wondering now if I won't be going the 40R way...
How do you think it would spool on a built tomei 2.2L with 280's and a Jun manifold w/ 80mm TB ? ( using the complete kit )
I was going to get one and go with a 35R, but reading how much better its going to spool , i'm wondering now if I won't be going the 40R way...
How do you think it would spool on a built tomei 2.2L with 280's and a Jun manifold w/ 80mm TB ? ( using the complete kit )
Jul 23, 2007, 05:02 PM
#169
What i was saying is that the 40R spools BETTER than the 35R. When referring to "spool" there are a few different ways of looking at it. There is boost threshold (the point at which the turbo "wakes up"), then there is the point where the wg opens (torque curve levels off), then some poeple use 200whp/200tq, then there is the slope of the torque curve and last but certainly not least, performance at part throttle non-WOT (where the twinscroll REALLY shines).
here is a terrible graph i just slapped together with microsoft paint. Its terrible and not accurate so please dont flame me, im just trying to show a trend. The turbos shows here are a singlescroll 30R, singlescroll 35R and twinscroll 40R on a 1.8L honda (LS/Vtec engine, GSR head, 81.5mm pistons, Full-Race intake manifold, headgames head). Note this test had a very restritive turbine housing on the 40R, which is why the torque falls so fast (extremely high backpressure). if the torque carried this turbo would have made well over 800whp
the first solid line is the 30R, the dotted line is the 35R and the high hp solid line is 40R. While the 40R does "spool" slightly later than the 35R, it is much stronger feeling at part throttle conditions and feels like its a smaller turbo than it actually is. Thats what i describe as "better" spool.
all valid points, and i welcome the criticism. I do not think the 40R will spool FASTER, i think it will spool stronger, smoother and offer more powerband. If your friend has only seen 100-200rpm, there are many possibilities for that -- incorrect cyl pairing, incorrect turbine housings, improper wastegating, etc. Additionally many of the twinscroll benefits are not seen in a WOT dyno plot -- benefits such as lower EGT, lower backpressure, better scavenging, bigger A/R.. Additionally twinscroll will not benefit an 8 cyl nearly as much as it does a 4 cyl, a twinscroll 8 cyl is just two single scroll 4 cyls. 4 cyl has many advantages in this area (4 cyl = 2 single scroll 2 cyls)
There was a thread recently on the big nissan forum fresh-alloy.com (re our SR20DET twinscroll kits) where many people who believed our twinscroll manifolds to be "hype"
http://forums.freshalloy.com/showthread.php?t=171645
two good posts from users that have switched from our single scroll kits to twinscroll kits are:
^^^well respected nissan tuner. does not sell our stuff, not friends with me, just saying what he's seen
^^^this guy had our singlescroll 3076R setup and changed ONLY manifold + turbine housing to a twinscroll. he was VERY pleased with the results and said "it seems like the car wants to go fast, its hard to drive slow and too easy to drive fast"
I can tell you honestly that if twinscroll didnt work, we wouldnt have redesigned every single manifold we make. The twinscroll supra manifold is easily twice as hard as the single scroll unit we produce, but everyone who has tested our single scroll vs twinscroll has been blown away.
i have no idea, but 4000 is pretty early, especially for a 2.0. i would say you could hit 4100-4200 on a 2.4, and about 4400on a 2.0
we're going to dyno the IC on a stock evo9 shortly, should be a good indicator of performance on an FPGreen
i think you would be impressed with the 3076. we are buttoning up the 30R prototype car this week, waiting for some parts to come back from HPC... very eager to test it!!
The kit includes a 4" 45 degree coupler which only requires a straight tube and a 4" filter. we can supply that if need be
tough to say at this early stage, but it sounds like your engine would be about as good a base as possible for our twinscroll 4088R kit
here is a terrible graph i just slapped together with microsoft paint. Its terrible and not accurate so please dont flame me, im just trying to show a trend. The turbos shows here are a singlescroll 30R, singlescroll 35R and twinscroll 40R on a 1.8L honda (LS/Vtec engine, GSR head, 81.5mm pistons, Full-Race intake manifold, headgames head). Note this test had a very restritive turbine housing on the 40R, which is why the torque falls so fast (extremely high backpressure). if the torque carried this turbo would have made well over 800whp
the first solid line is the 30R, the dotted line is the 35R and the high hp solid line is 40R. While the 40R does "spool" slightly later than the 35R, it is much stronger feeling at part throttle conditions and feels like its a smaller turbo than it actually is. Thats what i describe as "better" spool.
¿Geoff, don´t you think it´s a bit premature to say that your 40r twinscroll will spool faster than a 35r on an evo? If it actually does and is much more responsive throughout the powerband like you claim, you will set the new standard in evo turbo kits. I have to admit I'm a little skeptical because I asked my friend that owns Cartech(Corky Bell's old business) about true twinscroll setups and he said that the spool up difference is barely notisable(100-200 rpm) on the dyno most of the times when comparing equal setups. But they mainly deal with those big outlaw kits and domestics so maybe there's a difference there. Either way, the quality of the full race kits and parts for the evo look second to none. But the truth will lie in trap and lap times on built cars, which I can't wait to see.
There was a thread recently on the big nissan forum fresh-alloy.com (re our SR20DET twinscroll kits) where many people who believed our twinscroll manifolds to be "hype"
http://forums.freshalloy.com/showthread.php?t=171645
two good posts from users that have switched from our single scroll kits to twinscroll kits are:
Originally Posted by Martin XAT
I have experimented with both... on my customers cars. If you are running autox, drift or roadcourse.... you can't beat twinscroll.. Hands down the fastest transient response. I dare to say it is approaching NA characteristics. One of my customers ran the new twin scroll at Sebring during a CHIN race.. he has been doing this for several years now. Although the car dynoed slightly more, he magically dropped 2 seconds...when from year to year he only managed to shave .2-.3... To me, that is all the proof I need.
Martin
XAT Racing
Martin
XAT Racing
Originally Posted by Martin XAT
Tell that to the time attack C6 z06's and GT2's that we were finally able to beat this time around at Sebring with the 2 extra seconds we picked up, with nothing changed but a divided manifold and turbo. I don't believe in hype... I believe in lap times.
Martin
XAT Racing
Martin
XAT Racing
^^^well respected nissan tuner. does not sell our stuff, not friends with me, just saying what he's seen
Originally Posted by TS4l
The dyno I posted in my post showed that gain of 40hp and 29ft/lbs. I can post it again if anyone wants to see it but you can search and see it in my old thread.
Again I picked up 3-4mph and took .3 tenths off and only made a few runs with a stiffer suspension and street tires so I feel there is deffinatly a difference. I made over 50 passes last year and only got a 12.3 one out of those times with a 1.7 60'. Most runs were consistant 12.6's, this year every run with worse 1.9 60's are 12.0's and 12.1's. Not to mention how much quicker boost hits in between shifts, I can't get traction at all in a 2nd to 3rd or 3rd to 4th shift with 245/45/17 Falken Azenis 615's.
Again I picked up 3-4mph and took .3 tenths off and only made a few runs with a stiffer suspension and street tires so I feel there is deffinatly a difference. I made over 50 passes last year and only got a 12.3 one out of those times with a 1.7 60'. Most runs were consistant 12.6's, this year every run with worse 1.9 60's are 12.0's and 12.1's. Not to mention how much quicker boost hits in between shifts, I can't get traction at all in a 2nd to 3rd or 3rd to 4th shift with 245/45/17 Falken Azenis 615's.
I can tell you honestly that if twinscroll didnt work, we wouldnt have redesigned every single manifold we make. The twinscroll supra manifold is easily twice as hard as the single scroll unit we produce, but everyone who has tested our single scroll vs twinscroll has been blown away.
The kit includes a 4" 45 degree coupler which only requires a straight tube and a 4" filter. we can supply that if need be
This kit confused me a bit,
I was going to get one and go with a 35R, but reading how much better its going to spool , i'm wondering now if I won't be going the 40R way...
How do you think it would spool on a built tomei 2.2L with 280's and a Jun manifold w/ 80mm TB ? ( using the complete kit )
I was going to get one and go with a 35R, but reading how much better its going to spool , i'm wondering now if I won't be going the 40R way...
How do you think it would spool on a built tomei 2.2L with 280's and a Jun manifold w/ 80mm TB ? ( using the complete kit )
Last edited by Geoff Raicer; Jul 23, 2007 at 05:30 PM.
Jul 23, 2007, 05:21 PM
#170
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now i'm really confused lol
I'd be looking at runing that setup on 100oct fuel all the time , with boost maybe of around 1.7-2bars. Do you recon I could hit that boost by 5500 or near it ?
I'd be looking at runing that setup on 100oct fuel all the time , with boost maybe of around 1.7-2bars. Do you recon I could hit that boost by 5500 or near it ?
Jul 23, 2007, 06:53 PM
#172
Just to clarify Geoff... are you saying that you estimate your 4088 kit to make 2 bar @ 5800 rpm on a 2.2 litre motor?
Because I'd estimate a single scroll 35R to make 2 bar at 5k rpm.
So I too am confused because it sort of was implied in this thread the 4088 twin scroll might spool faster than a single scroll 35R.
Because I'd estimate a single scroll 35R to make 2 bar at 5k rpm.
So I too am confused because it sort of was implied in this thread the 4088 twin scroll might spool faster than a single scroll 35R.
Jul 23, 2007, 07:11 PM
#173
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Just to clarify Geoff... are you saying that you estimate your 4088 kit to make 2 bar @ 5800 rpm on a 2.2 litre motor?
Because I'd estimate a single scroll 35R to make 2 bar at 5k rpm.
So I too am confused because it sort of was implied in this thread the 4088 twin scroll might spool faster than a single scroll 35R.
Because I'd estimate a single scroll 35R to make 2 bar at 5k rpm.
So I too am confused because it sort of was implied in this thread the 4088 twin scroll might spool faster than a single scroll 35R.
I really think the 40R is the turbo that will be the one to use. Its basically an ultra efficient 37R, but becuase its twinscroll it spools even better than a 35R. It comes into boost so smoothly and so strong that even at low rpm it is very responsive and doesnt feel like a 700+whp turbo, even though it definately is.
On one of my personal cars i went from a GT37R to a 40R, the difference was night and day. The 37R was dead until boost hit, then it TOOK OFF. huge power increase in a cpl of rpms. The Twinscroll 40R had great power at lowish rpms, and when you rev the engine is just jumped. As you started driving it it would go right into boost, nothing at all like the single scroll 37R.
What i was saying is that the 40R spools BETTER than the 35R. When referring to "spool" there are a few different ways of looking at it. There is boost threshold (the point at which the turbo "wakes up"), then there is the point where the wg opens (torque curve levels off), then some poeple use 200whp/200tq, then there is the slope of the torque curve and last but certainly not least, performance at part throttle non-WOT (where the twinscroll REALLY shines).
Last edited by jbrown; Jul 23, 2007 at 07:16 PM.
Jul 23, 2007, 09:35 PM
#177
Funny, but back in the day, there were many discussions on the merits of transient response on www.theoldone.com. Most thought the guy was crazy. However, he really IS a genius of sorts. It's a good read, and there are great articles on what Geoff is trying to get across to some of our thicker headed members on the merits of transient response!
I used to talk to Larry back in the day... and to be quite honest, after a few hours of listening my brain ALWAYS hurt/leaked, and after application, I came away understanding more and more about how what is "common knowledge" in the tuner communities was mostly myth.
I used to talk to Larry back in the day... and to be quite honest, after a few hours of listening my brain ALWAYS hurt/leaked, and after application, I came away understanding more and more about how what is "common knowledge" in the tuner communities was mostly myth.
Last edited by Zeus; Jul 23, 2007 at 09:39 PM.
Jul 24, 2007, 05:00 AM
#178
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I have read the great thread from cover to cover, and realise there is lots of expectations of you re this TS set up being the Holy Grail of resolving Lag.
My experience with TS vs single is that TS tends to be more responsive and drivable as you press on the gas (either on part throttle or as you slam on WOT). The spool time is marginaly better, especialy on a large turbo bolted to a 2L. On a 2,3 - 2,4 its a lot better with full boost coming up to 300RPM earlier, in real world comparisons. on a 2L if you get 150RPM earlier spool its a lot!
Top end power always suffers more with T/S because its now got more restriction to deal with, but delivery of power is progressive and smooth, so worth the effrot, in my opinion, and im sure this is what most are picking up on when they do back to back tests of single vs TS set up's. Ofcourse you can always go for screamer pipes to compensate this, but try get that pst your local cops on the freeway!
The one thing which bothers me (having tuned seriously for a while now STI's and Evo's) is why your 3076R spool is so late. On a 2L stock singe housing of .82 i get a 3076 to spool to 2bar by 4600, and thats at 2000m above sea level with compramised - in otherwords cr@p - manifold. With a better manifold its comes down 150RPM on that at the same altitude. Just seems odd to me that its dead below 5000+!
Anyhow, good to see others also trying new ideas and designs.
My experience with TS vs single is that TS tends to be more responsive and drivable as you press on the gas (either on part throttle or as you slam on WOT). The spool time is marginaly better, especialy on a large turbo bolted to a 2L. On a 2,3 - 2,4 its a lot better with full boost coming up to 300RPM earlier, in real world comparisons. on a 2L if you get 150RPM earlier spool its a lot!
Top end power always suffers more with T/S because its now got more restriction to deal with, but delivery of power is progressive and smooth, so worth the effrot, in my opinion, and im sure this is what most are picking up on when they do back to back tests of single vs TS set up's. Ofcourse you can always go for screamer pipes to compensate this, but try get that pst your local cops on the freeway!
The one thing which bothers me (having tuned seriously for a while now STI's and Evo's) is why your 3076R spool is so late. On a 2L stock singe housing of .82 i get a 3076 to spool to 2bar by 4600, and thats at 2000m above sea level with compramised - in otherwords cr@p - manifold. With a better manifold its comes down 150RPM on that at the same altitude. Just seems odd to me that its dead below 5000+!
Anyhow, good to see others also trying new ideas and designs.
Last edited by popadel; Jul 24, 2007 at 05:06 AM.
Jul 24, 2007, 06:49 AM
#179
I can understand the significance of transient response... I drive a 35r on a 2 litre everyday right now. But my complaint about the 35r on a 2 litre is how long it takes to make full boost and therefore where my powerband is.
Regardless I'm glad Geoff has obliged us of his best estimate of when the 4088 will make full boost.
Jul 24, 2007, 07:42 AM
#180
It's difficult for the masses to grasp some of this discussion, simply because it isn't evident to many here that spool characteristics and transient response are not a simple, two-dimensional affair, such as what is displayed on a dyno chart. It isn't easy to imagine what's happening. It simply must be driven to be fully understood, and that isn't a readily available option for most. This being the case, it will be a leap of faith for many at this point in time.
I have nothing to promote, nothing to sell. What I can say from first-hand experience with my own car (PT67R), and from first-hand experience with Drifto's car (GT3076R) is with the twin-scroll setups, the big turbo reacts much faster to changes in throttle position, and that makes for a much more responsive, lively feel to the car. I can definitely relate to the track experience and 2 sec lap improvement as quoted above, and I don't doubt it for a minute.
I have nothing to promote, nothing to sell. What I can say from first-hand experience with my own car (PT67R), and from first-hand experience with Drifto's car (GT3076R) is with the twin-scroll setups, the big turbo reacts much faster to changes in throttle position, and that makes for a much more responsive, lively feel to the car. I can definitely relate to the track experience and 2 sec lap improvement as quoted above, and I don't doubt it for a minute.