Full-race's new toys
Jul 27, 2007, 08:39 AM
#211
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Yeap, switch the hot side, a new mani and maybe a new O2. No need for a new kit. You just need to find someone selling the hotside, then buy the Full-Race mani and figure out your O2 situation. Either way, converting you current turbo saves you the cost of buying a new one.
Last edited by robertrinaustin; Jul 27, 2007 at 08:42 AM.
Jul 27, 2007, 09:07 AM
#213
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I've done the math and for me it makes more sense to piece something together and I have a kit with ok resale value. You're paying for a new dp and ic piping with the Full Race kit anyway, so that's a wash. The biggest uncertainty is the O2. My problem is the Full Race stuff isn't compatible with any other dp, so I may have to fab an O2 (actually have some fab an O2, I have no skills
).
Jul 27, 2007, 09:27 AM
#214
I was able to use the turbo from an ATP kit, nothing else. I could have reused the 38mm WG, but I much prefer the v-band 44mm. We had to fabricate everything else including downpipe from scratch. One needs a very good fabricator to do this. It isn't easy or cheap. Going this route was NOT cheaper vs. selling the ATP kit on the cheap and buying something else, so be advised. The saving grace was I had something better than anything off-the-shelf, but only because MPFab is so skilled and incredibly meticulous.
I still have a box full of unusable ATP kit pieces. . .
I still have a box full of unusable ATP kit pieces. . .
Jul 27, 2007, 10:41 AM
#216
I was able to use the turbo from an ATP kit, nothing else. I could have reused the 38mm WG, but I much prefer the v-band 44mm. We had to fabricate everything else including downpipe from scratch. One needs a very good fabricator to do this. It isn't easy or cheap. Going this route was NOT cheaper vs. selling the ATP kit on the cheap and buying something else, so be advised. The saving grace was I had something better than anything off-the-shelf, but only because MPFab is so skilled and incredibly meticulous.
I still have a box full of unusable ATP kit pieces. . .
I still have a box full of unusable ATP kit pieces. . .
so did you ever make a thread about your new secret sauce? we all know you're running twin scroll now but what about details?
Jul 27, 2007, 05:03 PM
#219
it would do very well, its a very popular setup for our SR20DET customers, their engines respond very similarly to the 2.0L 4G63s. like Ted B said its very responsive and torquey, similar to a V8 with crazy top end. Good spool, low rpm power and SOLID midrange. a good stock bottom end street setup that would embarass almost anything else out there on the street (light to light type stuff)
the bigger turbos feel dont feel so "big" ... so going bigger on the turbo gets pretty hard to resist
hey mike, that was a great writeup. I iwsh i read it a long time ago! i miss reading yours and dave coleman's columns every month, i learned a lot
T4 turbine housing is not available for a 30R, only 35R, 37R and 40R
larger than .78? There is a 1.06 twinscroll i have saved in my office but i am afraid to get rid of it in case i could never get another 
you could use the turbo and only the turbo from the ATP kit. It wouldnt be a bad setup, but you would have a bunch of ATP parts that you couldnt sell. The most affordable thing to do would be to sell the ATP kit and just buy the complete kit. Piecing a kit together wont save much money, but it will almost certainly increase your headaches
good advice.
Id say he is pretty open and giving with his info, definately not keeping stuff to himself
here is a snippet of an article about turbos I wrote for SCC, probably around 8-10 years ago, so long ago I can't remember. Perhaps it can serve as a good reference for this thread:
Another interesting aspect of turbine housing design is divided housings. Divided housing originated in the long haul diesel truck industry as a way to improve turbo response and efficiency. A divided housing is exactly how it sounds; the scroll of the turbine housing is split in two. Sometimes this is called a twin scroll housing as this was old Toyota nomenclature for this sort of design.
A divided housing can increase turbine efficiency by as much as 15% in some parts of an engines operating range in 4 cylinder engines. By efficiency we are talking about the percentage of work extracted by the turbine wheel as measure by shaft power out of the available energy in the exhaust gas stream. There are studies that show that a 2% gain in turbine efficiency can offset gains of up to 25% of the turbines inertia so a 15% gain in efficiency is quite significant. A savvy tuner can use a divided housing to his advantage on an engine with few numbers of cylinders. A divided housing works best on a 4-cylinder engine with some advantages on a 6 cylinder with a properly designed manifold. Divided housings are exceedingly potent on a rotary engine.
When a divided housing is used, usually cylinders 1 and 4 are fed into one side of the scroll and cylinders 2 and 3 are fed into the other side. The cylinders fed into each side of the scroll are as far apart in the firing order as possible. This allows the turbine to be hit with 4 distinct pulses as the engine goes through its firing order. This improves turbine efficiency, sometimes to the point where up to one size larger A/R housing with it’s attendant lower backpressure can be used, either that or less turbo lag can be enjoyed with the same size A/R housing.
The divided housing can also improve volumetric efficiency by making reversion from adjacent in firing order cylinders much more difficult. This is because there is a great deal of separation in degrees of crankshaft rotation between the valve opening events of the adjacent cylinders. In order for a reversion pulse to contaminate an adjacent firing cylinder, it has to travel back through the spinning turbine blades and up the other side of the divided turbine-housing scroll to get to the adjacent cylinder. This is pretty difficult and the pulse will tend to take the path of least resistance, past the turbine to the area of lower pressure, the exhaust. With less reversion an engine can safely tuned more aggressively for more power. Cam timing can be optimized more for power with less worry about limiting overlap to avoid reversion issues.
The fewer and more discreet the pulses fed to a divided housing turbo are, the better it works. On more than 6 cylinders, the divided housing is probably not worth the effort except perhaps in a V-8 engine with a 180-degree crank in twin turbo configuration. In this case, the V-8 can be treated as two 4 cylinder engines. Even if a divided housing exhaust housing is not used, if pulse separation can be maintained all the way to the turbine inlet of a conventional turbine housing, significant gains in turbine efficiency will still be noted, sometimes in the order of 5-8 percent. For some reason, divided exhaust housings have not been exploited in the tuner market or even by OEM’s outside of the commercial diesel market. Perhaps some visionary tuner will soon take advantage of this and come out with turbo kits designed in this way.
Another interesting aspect of turbine housing design is divided housings. Divided housing originated in the long haul diesel truck industry as a way to improve turbo response and efficiency. A divided housing is exactly how it sounds; the scroll of the turbine housing is split in two. Sometimes this is called a twin scroll housing as this was old Toyota nomenclature for this sort of design.
A divided housing can increase turbine efficiency by as much as 15% in some parts of an engines operating range in 4 cylinder engines. By efficiency we are talking about the percentage of work extracted by the turbine wheel as measure by shaft power out of the available energy in the exhaust gas stream. There are studies that show that a 2% gain in turbine efficiency can offset gains of up to 25% of the turbines inertia so a 15% gain in efficiency is quite significant. A savvy tuner can use a divided housing to his advantage on an engine with few numbers of cylinders. A divided housing works best on a 4-cylinder engine with some advantages on a 6 cylinder with a properly designed manifold. Divided housings are exceedingly potent on a rotary engine.
When a divided housing is used, usually cylinders 1 and 4 are fed into one side of the scroll and cylinders 2 and 3 are fed into the other side. The cylinders fed into each side of the scroll are as far apart in the firing order as possible. This allows the turbine to be hit with 4 distinct pulses as the engine goes through its firing order. This improves turbine efficiency, sometimes to the point where up to one size larger A/R housing with it’s attendant lower backpressure can be used, either that or less turbo lag can be enjoyed with the same size A/R housing.
The divided housing can also improve volumetric efficiency by making reversion from adjacent in firing order cylinders much more difficult. This is because there is a great deal of separation in degrees of crankshaft rotation between the valve opening events of the adjacent cylinders. In order for a reversion pulse to contaminate an adjacent firing cylinder, it has to travel back through the spinning turbine blades and up the other side of the divided turbine-housing scroll to get to the adjacent cylinder. This is pretty difficult and the pulse will tend to take the path of least resistance, past the turbine to the area of lower pressure, the exhaust. With less reversion an engine can safely tuned more aggressively for more power. Cam timing can be optimized more for power with less worry about limiting overlap to avoid reversion issues.
The fewer and more discreet the pulses fed to a divided housing turbo are, the better it works. On more than 6 cylinders, the divided housing is probably not worth the effort except perhaps in a V-8 engine with a 180-degree crank in twin turbo configuration. In this case, the V-8 can be treated as two 4 cylinder engines. Even if a divided housing exhaust housing is not used, if pulse separation can be maintained all the way to the turbine inlet of a conventional turbine housing, significant gains in turbine efficiency will still be noted, sometimes in the order of 5-8 percent. For some reason, divided exhaust housings have not been exploited in the tuner market or even by OEM’s outside of the commercial diesel market. Perhaps some visionary tuner will soon take advantage of this and come out with turbo kits designed in this way.
hey mike, that was a great writeup. I iwsh i read it a long time ago! i miss reading yours and dave coleman's columns every month, i learned a lot
I was able to use the turbo from an ATP kit, nothing else. We had to fabricate everything else including downpipe from scratch. One needs a very good fabricator to do this. It isn't easy or cheap. Going this route was NOT cheaper vs. selling the ATP kit on the cheap and buying something else, so be advised... I still have a box full of unusable ATP kit pieces. . .
Id say he is pretty open and giving with his info, definately not keeping stuff to himself
Jul 28, 2007, 02:22 AM
#223
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ok guys thnx for the input. I know the ATP kit is useless, and the guy who sold it to me also sold it pretty much like that, useless. But hey, I got it $400, so I'm thinking thts a good deal. Meanwhile I'll just strap it on run like that, but the info I was looking for was for a later setup. $400 ppl!! $400!!!! 
Jul 28, 2007, 09:46 AM
#225
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Whats the best place to look for a bigger T3 ST? How high does Drifto spin his motor? You think the .78 with the 3076 would be too tight for an Evo running to 7000 RPMS (about 500 WHP)?