Full-race's new toys
Jul 5, 2007, 11:47 AM
#64
I can't wait to see some results with this kit!!!! A twin-scroll GT4088R paired up to a 2.3L stroker would likely be a BEAST on the streets!!!! This would be a great way to go for someone who wants insane power with good response. Geoff, the EVO community salutes you for your hard work!
I called Full-Race yesterday to see if iget any kind of info from them. He was telling me some of the results from the turbos that they have tested.... They definetly didnt want to rush anything, and make sure its all done right before they relase anything. take your time and make it perfect! I cant wait for it, i'm sure the throttle response with kit will just be insane.
Here are some dynos of the 3071s and 3076s, both twinscroll and single scroll.
The solid line is with the twinscroll 3071R, the dotted line is with the singlescroll 3076R. There is about a 20whp/wtq gain by 2000rpm, a 30whp/wtq gain by 3000rpm, and a 100whp/wtq gain by 4000rpm. It makes 200 ft lbs @ 3600 rpm, 200hp at 4100 rpm, 400ftlbs at 4600 rpm and 400hp at 5400rpm. Unfortunately twincsrolls greatest benefit of exceptional throttle response isnt somethign that is blatantly obvious on a WOT steady state dyno plot. I have the before and after boost plot, acceleration plot and distance/time if anyoen wants to see
Full-Race drift team driver Forrest **** recently swapped over to the twinscroll 3071R from the singlescroll 3076R and after taking 2nd at the last 3 NOPI drift events, he said the twinscroll is so much more reqponsive and so much quicker that he has a huge advantage over all the other cars out there. If he could avoid crashing in the finals he would probably be doing better lol
this is a twinscroll 3076R dyno plot. good for comparison to the above single scroll 3076R and twinscroll 3071R.
the biggest turbo you can fit in the 2.5" outlet is the GT4094R, and that can do 800-850whp, with a full length radiator
We'll see I'm much more interested in the bigger wheels. I don't see a divided T4 spooling any faster than a single T3. A 4088R might be good for 50whp over a 37R and I say might because I haven't seen one dyno higher than a 37R yet on a EVO, but it should be good for a little more. Either way I cant wait for these kits to be done and can't wait for any preliminary results. I see a Full-Race kit in my future.
i dont think you will be disappointed
as one of the only twinscroll Garrett guys on the forum, speaking from experience, i agree with you 100%
Jul 5, 2007, 12:21 PM
#66
However, what is most noticeable is the fact that the divided setup has the turbine wheel spinning faster at ALL throttle positions. What this does is make the divided setup much more responsive to changes in throttle position (transient response), which makes the car feel torquier and quicker to jump. This is not something that can be measured on a static, WOT dyno pull, but it is darn sure felt by whomever is driving it.
Last edited by Ted B; Jul 5, 2007 at 12:27 PM.
Jul 5, 2007, 02:01 PM
#68
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After seeing the work that they did on one of my friends RSX's, I'm sure you remember Jun's car Geoff, I will be purchasing more than one item for them here in a few weeks.
Jul 5, 2007, 02:34 PM
#69
Yes, and yes.
However, what is most noticeable is the fact that the divided setup has the turbine wheel spinning faster at ALL throttle positions. What this does is make the divided setup much more responsive to changes in throttle position (transient response), which makes the car feel torquier and quicker to jump. This is not something that can be measured on a static, WOT dyno pull, but it is darn sure felt by whomever is driving it.
However, what is most noticeable is the fact that the divided setup has the turbine wheel spinning faster at ALL throttle positions. What this does is make the divided setup much more responsive to changes in throttle position (transient response), which makes the car feel torquier and quicker to jump. This is not something that can be measured on a static, WOT dyno pull, but it is darn sure felt by whomever is driving it.
Jul 5, 2007, 08:17 PM
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The guy that I spoke with at Full Race never gave me his, that I can remember at least. But none the less he was definetly helpfull in answering my question. If it helps any he talked kind of quietly on the phone, lol.
Jul 5, 2007, 08:25 PM
#73
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Geoff, a couple of questions in regards to the above dyno charts. It looks like the twin scroll setups give up a little bit of topend, is this the expected behavior?
I will be very interested to see how a twin-scroll GT35R or 4088 stacks up to a single and twin scroll 3076 on pump-gas...
l8r)
I will be very interested to see how a twin-scroll GT35R or 4088 stacks up to a single and twin scroll 3076 on pump-gas...
l8r)
Jul 6, 2007, 01:12 AM
#74
The twin scroll honestly seems to have zero negatives, IMO. Well, provided you ignore the cost difference. More top end, faster spool, better mid range power, higher efficiency, amazing boost response. It's got it all. Here is a friends car that has seen a divided and undivided T4 setup on it within the last few months.
http://iwsti.com/blogs/007STI/
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/d...5701244f7f.htm
Here is a comparison between a divided and undivided GT42 setup. It is not a direct swap, as a few things were changed, but I think it shows the general idea of the benefits of the divided setups.
GT4294R setup (run 39):
Undivided manifold
2.45L (EJ25)
28.5 PSI
GT4202 setup (run 19)
2.6L
slightly shorter IC piping (thanks Geoff)
29 PSI
Faster spool with the BIGGER NON-BALL BEARING turbo then the undivided ball bearing turbo! Sure, it's a 2.45L vs. 2.6L, but I don't think that makes for 200HP gains in the mid range. I think the displacement and shorter piping likely just made up for the ball bearing center section and larger compressor on the spool up. The real gains, IMO came from the divided manifold setup. The curve is altered pretty drastically. Much better torque through the mid range, less torque loss above the torque peak. Smoother power delivery. On the street, the two I don't think the two can even be compared. On the divided setup, the turbo gets noisy at like 3000 RPMs. It screams and is just waiting for you to get on it at part throttle. Hit the gas and it comes on fast, hard and yet SMOOTH. The undivided setups seem to be completely gutless below about 4500 RPM then came on like a switch. It makes the car feel laggy and then violently fast. The divided setup is a whole different animal. There is instant boost, even if it's just 2-3 PSI, it's boost and it makes the car get to the real boost threshold nice and quick while ditching that switch like feel and perceived lag. The car doesn't feel as violent, but when you see the speedo passing 120mph like it's nothing, it puts it into perspective of just how fast the car is moving. Even if they get to maximum boost at the same RPM, the divided setup gets to full boost quicker in a time sense because of the boost it does get below the threshold and it is a night and day difference when you are driving the car. The video even shows it. If you've ever driven an undivided T4, you know that rolling into the throttle in 1st gear is about the strangest thing ever. Typically, it feels like a geo metro as the motor accelerates just fast enough to not let the turbo spool up. Not on this car. Hit the gas and before you know it, you are snapping off the rev limiter in 1st gear. Lag it on into 2nd and before you have time to think about it, you are back on the limiter. A normal undivided setup, toss a slow shift at it and half the gear is spent trying to get the turbo going. Toss it into third and you have the back end of an AWD car running 275 wide M/T drag radials breaking lose and scrambling for traction... Toss it without a quick shift on an undivided and you never get that nasty torque surge that caused all that tire spinning fun.
Geoff. Any chance you can hook up a good divided T4 GT3582R turbo? I want something to spool like a 50 trim yet destroy it on top end. Just a nice "stock like" feeling car with enough power to take down a new Z06. You know, something nice and simple.
http://iwsti.com/blogs/007STI/
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/d...5701244f7f.htm
Here is a comparison between a divided and undivided GT42 setup. It is not a direct swap, as a few things were changed, but I think it shows the general idea of the benefits of the divided setups.
GT4294R setup (run 39):
Undivided manifold
2.45L (EJ25)
28.5 PSI
GT4202 setup (run 19)
2.6L
slightly shorter IC piping (thanks Geoff)
29 PSI
Faster spool with the BIGGER NON-BALL BEARING turbo then the undivided ball bearing turbo! Sure, it's a 2.45L vs. 2.6L, but I don't think that makes for 200HP gains in the mid range. I think the displacement and shorter piping likely just made up for the ball bearing center section and larger compressor on the spool up. The real gains, IMO came from the divided manifold setup. The curve is altered pretty drastically. Much better torque through the mid range, less torque loss above the torque peak. Smoother power delivery. On the street, the two I don't think the two can even be compared. On the divided setup, the turbo gets noisy at like 3000 RPMs. It screams and is just waiting for you to get on it at part throttle. Hit the gas and it comes on fast, hard and yet SMOOTH. The undivided setups seem to be completely gutless below about 4500 RPM then came on like a switch. It makes the car feel laggy and then violently fast. The divided setup is a whole different animal. There is instant boost, even if it's just 2-3 PSI, it's boost and it makes the car get to the real boost threshold nice and quick while ditching that switch like feel and perceived lag. The car doesn't feel as violent, but when you see the speedo passing 120mph like it's nothing, it puts it into perspective of just how fast the car is moving. Even if they get to maximum boost at the same RPM, the divided setup gets to full boost quicker in a time sense because of the boost it does get below the threshold and it is a night and day difference when you are driving the car. The video even shows it. If you've ever driven an undivided T4, you know that rolling into the throttle in 1st gear is about the strangest thing ever. Typically, it feels like a geo metro as the motor accelerates just fast enough to not let the turbo spool up. Not on this car. Hit the gas and before you know it, you are snapping off the rev limiter in 1st gear. Lag it on into 2nd and before you have time to think about it, you are back on the limiter. A normal undivided setup, toss a slow shift at it and half the gear is spent trying to get the turbo going. Toss it into third and you have the back end of an AWD car running 275 wide M/T drag radials breaking lose and scrambling for traction... Toss it without a quick shift on an undivided and you never get that nasty torque surge that caused all that tire spinning fun.
Geoff. Any chance you can hook up a good divided T4 GT3582R turbo? I want something to spool like a 50 trim yet destroy it on top end. Just a nice "stock like" feeling car with enough power to take down a new Z06. You know, something nice and simple.
Last edited by 03whitegsr; Jul 6, 2007 at 01:19 AM.
Jul 6, 2007, 02:59 AM
#75
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The twin scroll honestly seems to have zero negatives, IMO. Well, provided you ignore the cost difference. More top end, faster spool, better mid range power, higher efficiency, amazing boost response. It's got it all. Here is a friends car that has seen a divided and undivided T4 setup on it within the last few months.
http://iwsti.com/blogs/007STI/
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/d...5701244f7f.htm
Here is a comparison between a divided and undivided GT42 setup. It is not a direct swap, as a few things were changed, but I think it shows the general idea of the benefits of the divided setups.
GT4294R setup (run 39):
Undivided manifold
2.45L (EJ25)
28.5 PSI
GT4202 setup (run 19)
2.6L
slightly shorter IC piping (thanks Geoff)
29 PSI
Faster spool with the BIGGER NON-BALL BEARING turbo then the undivided ball bearing turbo! Sure, it's a 2.45L vs. 2.6L, but I don't think that makes for 200HP gains in the mid range. I think the displacement and shorter piping likely just made up for the ball bearing center section and larger compressor on the spool up. The real gains, IMO came from the divided manifold setup. The curve is altered pretty drastically. Much better torque through the mid range, less torque loss above the torque peak. Smoother power delivery. On the street, the two I don't think the two can even be compared. On the divided setup, the turbo gets noisy at like 3000 RPMs. It screams and is just waiting for you to get on it at part throttle. Hit the gas and it comes on fast, hard and yet SMOOTH. The undivided setups seem to be completely gutless below about 4500 RPM then came on like a switch. It makes the car feel laggy and then violently fast. The divided setup is a whole different animal. There is instant boost, even if it's just 2-3 PSI, it's boost and it makes the car get to the real boost threshold nice and quick while ditching that switch like feel and perceived lag. The car doesn't feel as violent, but when you see the speedo passing 120mph like it's nothing, it puts it into perspective of just how fast the car is moving. Even if they get to maximum boost at the same RPM, the divided setup gets to full boost quicker in a time sense because of the boost it does get below the threshold and it is a night and day difference when you are driving the car. The video even shows it. If you've ever driven an undivided T4, you know that rolling into the throttle in 1st gear is about the strangest thing ever. Typically, it feels like a geo metro as the motor accelerates just fast enough to not let the turbo spool up. Not on this car. Hit the gas and before you know it, you are snapping off the rev limiter in 1st gear. Lag it on into 2nd and before you have time to think about it, you are back on the limiter. A normal undivided setup, toss a slow shift at it and half the gear is spent trying to get the turbo going. Toss it into third and you have the back end of an AWD car running 275 wide M/T drag radials breaking lose and scrambling for traction... Toss it without a quick shift on an undivided and you never get that nasty torque surge that caused all that tire spinning fun.
Geoff. Any chance you can hook up a good divided T4 GT3582R turbo? I want something to spool like a 50 trim yet destroy it on top end. Just a nice "stock like" feeling car with enough power to take down a new Z06. You know, something nice and simple.
http://iwsti.com/blogs/007STI/
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/d...5701244f7f.htm
Here is a comparison between a divided and undivided GT42 setup. It is not a direct swap, as a few things were changed, but I think it shows the general idea of the benefits of the divided setups.
GT4294R setup (run 39):
Undivided manifold
2.45L (EJ25)
28.5 PSI
GT4202 setup (run 19)
2.6L
slightly shorter IC piping (thanks Geoff)
29 PSI
Faster spool with the BIGGER NON-BALL BEARING turbo then the undivided ball bearing turbo! Sure, it's a 2.45L vs. 2.6L, but I don't think that makes for 200HP gains in the mid range. I think the displacement and shorter piping likely just made up for the ball bearing center section and larger compressor on the spool up. The real gains, IMO came from the divided manifold setup. The curve is altered pretty drastically. Much better torque through the mid range, less torque loss above the torque peak. Smoother power delivery. On the street, the two I don't think the two can even be compared. On the divided setup, the turbo gets noisy at like 3000 RPMs. It screams and is just waiting for you to get on it at part throttle. Hit the gas and it comes on fast, hard and yet SMOOTH. The undivided setups seem to be completely gutless below about 4500 RPM then came on like a switch. It makes the car feel laggy and then violently fast. The divided setup is a whole different animal. There is instant boost, even if it's just 2-3 PSI, it's boost and it makes the car get to the real boost threshold nice and quick while ditching that switch like feel and perceived lag. The car doesn't feel as violent, but when you see the speedo passing 120mph like it's nothing, it puts it into perspective of just how fast the car is moving. Even if they get to maximum boost at the same RPM, the divided setup gets to full boost quicker in a time sense because of the boost it does get below the threshold and it is a night and day difference when you are driving the car. The video even shows it. If you've ever driven an undivided T4, you know that rolling into the throttle in 1st gear is about the strangest thing ever. Typically, it feels like a geo metro as the motor accelerates just fast enough to not let the turbo spool up. Not on this car. Hit the gas and before you know it, you are snapping off the rev limiter in 1st gear. Lag it on into 2nd and before you have time to think about it, you are back on the limiter. A normal undivided setup, toss a slow shift at it and half the gear is spent trying to get the turbo going. Toss it into third and you have the back end of an AWD car running 275 wide M/T drag radials breaking lose and scrambling for traction... Toss it without a quick shift on an undivided and you never get that nasty torque surge that caused all that tire spinning fun.
Geoff. Any chance you can hook up a good divided T4 GT3582R turbo? I want something to spool like a 50 trim yet destroy it on top end. Just a nice "stock like" feeling car with enough power to take down a new Z06. You know, something nice and simple.
I love the look of his engine bay.
