Ted B

iTrader: (6)

And just what would that be?


You've blindly asserted that a highly motivated group of individuals won't better anything with "Cosworth" stamped on it, despite years of ongoing development, and you accuse those who know better of promoting misinformation and opinions.


Go say the same thing about Budweiser in a beer connoisseur's forum and let's see how far you get.


Well then, I guess you had better start being wary.

CO_VR4

iTrader: (83)

Sure you do. That claim has been quoted as having been made by your company by at least three people in this post alone, including one vendor. It's apparent that you are disseminating that story to your prospective customer base, and they're posting it here, in response to a specific question about whose head is "better". If you are telling people about your claim, there's a reason. The reason is to put down your competition, and promote your product. There's no other logical reason that you'd tell the same story to all these people. If you do it, you should own it. Don't be bashful, just admit it.

As far as the truth of the story, shavings from porting remaining in the ports is highly unlikely. I've been around CNC work for years. Any head that is being ported, whether by hand or by CNC, has to be completely disassembled. CNC ports are cut using high flow coolant that flushes away shavings while the ports are being cut. Then the ports are hand finished. Cosworth's description of their process says their heads are ultrasonic cleaned after porting and hand finishing. Then, as you know, the process of valve fitting and lapping is done for every HP valve job. For there to be "shavings" in the ports would require not just overlooking them, but actually "working around" them on at least 4-5 seperate following processes.

CO_VR4

iTrader: (83)

Just review the thread, Ted, and look for the correction you admitted yourself. JAM does not CNC Evo heads. You didn't tumble to this till about your 5th post assuming otherwise. Readers who care will review the thread and find the other unsupported claims that have been made.

I've asserted nothing of the kind. I've simply pointed out (repeatedly) that you persist in presenting opinion as fact, even when you provide no data to support your conclusion that one is better (or worse) than the other. That's the definition of "blindly asserting", I'd propose, and I'm frankly amazed that you persist in doing so.

I do, however, reiterate that a company substituting stories about other companies' products instead of providing positive data about its own does not favorably impress me.

I provided some real world facts -- the Cosworth head is on the AMS EVO motor that was proven to dyno at over 1000HP, and it is on the AMS Evo that is the current Evo E.T. and MPH record holder, as well as the Evo that placed in the One Lap car (not an all out drag car). It is also used on John Mueller's "Muellerized" road racing Evo, which is at the opposite end of the competition spectrum from a purpose built drag car, so it must work pretty well in a variety of high performance applications, even with its "inferior" Cosworth 10,500 RPM springs, factory new surface finish, etc...

So, to summarize:

Ted B says: "JAM, FTW".
JAM says: "We know more about 4g63s than Cosworth".

I say: Cosworth has forgotten more about head design than most people ever knew to start with, and until someone presents facts for discussion, there's no more to talk about.

Ted B

iTrader: (6)

Not correcting myself would constitute 'misinformation'. I suggest you learn the difference.


What I observed is unadulterated and factual for enough for me to reiterate it as such. Whether you choose not to believe it or not constitutes your personal opinion, and makes no difference to me whatsoever.


Other heads work OK too, but I wouldn't necessarily consider them as the best possible option either, all things considered. And FWIW, like most others here, I'm not a Cosworth dealer, I don't sell heads, and I darn sure don't get them for free.


Great, cue an orchestral hit and hand clapping.

Jasil

iTrader: (22)

In the real world the differences are minimal. It's obvious that you think Cosworth are by far the best CO_VR4 that's fine in the end in actual performance numbers take a Buschur head, AMS head, JAM head, Magnus head, Cosworth head etc and I doubt you will see much difference at all in real world numbers. All IMO of course then it falls back to customer service go with your favorite shop.

CO_VR4

iTrader: (83)

Jasil, I think you are probably accurate that heads from the shops you name would be quite similar in their performance if compared. That's a reasonable assumption, and seems likely based on the real world performance of their heads on the motors. No argument from me on that conclusion. I've owned, examined, driven, and enjoyed similar "Stage III type" heads ported and built by Magnus, Buschur, Portflow and others. I'm not a dealer for any car parts. I pay market rate for all the parts I buy, although I try to find reasonable prices and value for the parts I'd like to buy, just like anyone else.

I don't think Cosworth heads are "the best". I don't have the necessary data to support a comparison, as I've said repeatedly in this thread, and unless I do, I don't form an opinion and then defend it without facts. I simply continue to point out that nobody else has any data (at least that they care to publicly share) to support a claim that one is superior to the other, and that even if the data were to be supplied, the use to which the head is put has an impact on what head would be "better".

What leaves a bad taste in my mouth is (1) unsupported claims by Evo "gurus" that one product is "better" than another; and (2) shops that denigrate products sold by their competitors, instead of directing the reader to data to show where their product is technically superior.

I'm done.

Ted B

iTrader: (6)

Good bye.

For those who may not have seen some flow data that was previously posted in this forum:

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...light=cosworth

Of course, this was generated by a vendor, so consider it FWIW.

4G63

iTrader: (4)

This makes sense to me for the fact that JAM is very close to me and if I had issues with their build then I could have it handled fairly easily. If I lived in Ohio I would use Buschur, Illinois then AMS, etc.

I can't imagine that there would be that much of a difference between these heads on the street....

evo_08

iTrader: (1)

my bjs head ftw.lol

sonicnofadz

iTrader: (4)

To me, experience is the most important factor. When you get right down to it, JAM has the most experience machine 4G63 engines than another other shop in this country, and they have their own flow bench and engine dyno to conduct their own testing. Sure AMS and Buschur have set records with their drag cars, but they don't even do their own machining (as far as I know). JAM is a machine shop, and machine shop only, (they don't race 4G63's). They use to provide engines to Extreme Motorsports, who had great success with their drag talon, but Extreme has chosen to discontinue their racing efforts. Its not fair to judge a machine shop's competence and ability on their own racing accomplishments, especially when they don't even race.