AMS Tests: The New EVO AccessPort
Dec 15, 2007, 01:21 AM
#47
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Personnally, coming from the subaru world where the Cobb AP is a huge hit, it was a breathe of fresh air to be able to actually have access to my ecu via ecuflash. For once I don't feel held hostage by someone else whenever I need to make a tuning change to my car. It was a real hassle trying to get tuned everytime I made a part change or wanted to try something else. Unforunately for me, I don't have any "Protuners" around my area, so everytime I needed a tune, I had to get a group of 5-10 people together so I could get the "tuner" to make a trip out to my area. Then if the tune had an issue, I was left dealing with back and forth emails and phone calls to see if I could get something changed. Then I had to wait for the tuner to email me the updated map, and if that didn't fix my issue, it was back to square one. I'm still a very active member on the subaru forums, and I can tell you that there aren't nearly as many people trying to tune their own cars with open source tuning, or even Cobb street tuner for that matter. Sure the AP is great for those that don't have the time, or don't want to learn how to tune, but I feel as if it has somewhat dumbed down the Subaru community when it comes to understanding tuning, and how changing certain things affects the cars performance.
Yes, Cobb did come out with street tuner software for the everyday user for the STI, but it cost $400. The price for evo street tuner probably won't be much different. The overall economics of using Cobb vs. ecuflash doesn't makes sense to me, but that my opinion. You pay $695 for an AP, plus whatever a tuner decides to charge you for a custom map(s). This is usually $300-500. A custom map will pretty much be required after you have exceeded Cobbs part requirements to use their off the shelf maps (OTS), which right now is just the addition of a TBE which is stage 2. So once you start throwing more performance parts on, it will be time to start getting "protuned" to get the most out of your setup. Plus you can kiss that cobb backing their product stuff right out the window once you start getting "protuned". From what I've seen coming over here to the darkside, the ecuflash tuners are very reasonable on pricing. Plus they seem more willing to go back and forth with datalogs and maps. Sure you could tune your evo using street tuner once its released by Cobb, but then you have $1000+ into tuning. For that amount of money, I can purchase a freaking ODII scanner, tactrix cable, laptop, and get a custom flash from a tuner to get me going.
Yes the AP is small and protable, and you can flash a real time map into your ecu whenever you want, but that fact is, you most likely won't be using this feature as much as you think. The only time I flashed in a real time map was when I switched over to race gas. It also reads and displays different parameters from the ecu, but it doesn't give max values of these parameters. The STI AP 2 can only read up to 18.5 psi. So if you own an STI and are tuned for 20 psi, the max it will read is 18.5. It also does the samething with the other live readings it displays. It might be somewhat different for the Evo, but I doubt it varies that much.
Like I stated before, the Cobb AP is a great tool for beginners, or those that don't want to learn, but for me, I'm glad I found ecuflash!
Yes, Cobb did come out with street tuner software for the everyday user for the STI, but it cost $400. The price for evo street tuner probably won't be much different. The overall economics of using Cobb vs. ecuflash doesn't makes sense to me, but that my opinion. You pay $695 for an AP, plus whatever a tuner decides to charge you for a custom map(s). This is usually $300-500. A custom map will pretty much be required after you have exceeded Cobbs part requirements to use their off the shelf maps (OTS), which right now is just the addition of a TBE which is stage 2. So once you start throwing more performance parts on, it will be time to start getting "protuned" to get the most out of your setup. Plus you can kiss that cobb backing their product stuff right out the window once you start getting "protuned". From what I've seen coming over here to the darkside, the ecuflash tuners are very reasonable on pricing. Plus they seem more willing to go back and forth with datalogs and maps. Sure you could tune your evo using street tuner once its released by Cobb, but then you have $1000+ into tuning. For that amount of money, I can purchase a freaking ODII scanner, tactrix cable, laptop, and get a custom flash from a tuner to get me going.
Yes the AP is small and protable, and you can flash a real time map into your ecu whenever you want, but that fact is, you most likely won't be using this feature as much as you think. The only time I flashed in a real time map was when I switched over to race gas. It also reads and displays different parameters from the ecu, but it doesn't give max values of these parameters. The STI AP 2 can only read up to 18.5 psi. So if you own an STI and are tuned for 20 psi, the max it will read is 18.5. It also does the samething with the other live readings it displays. It might be somewhat different for the Evo, but I doubt it varies that much.
Like I stated before, the Cobb AP is a great tool for beginners, or those that don't want to learn, but for me, I'm glad I found ecuflash!
I"m pretty sure that clears alot up.
Dec 15, 2007, 06:02 AM
#48
Personnally, coming from the subaru world where the Cobb AP is a huge hit, it was a breathe of fresh air to be able to actually have access to my ecu via ecuflash. For once I don't feel held hostage by someone else whenever I need to make a tuning change to my car. It was a real hassle trying to get tuned everytime I made a part change or wanted to try something else. Unforunately for me, I don't have any "Protuners" around my area, so everytime I needed a tune, I had to get a group of 5-10 people together so I could get the "tuner" to make a trip out to my area. Then if the tune had an issue, I was left dealing with back and forth emails and phone calls to see if I could get something changed. Then I had to wait for the tuner to email me the updated map, and if that didn't fix my issue, it was back to square one. I'm still a very active member on the subaru forums, and I can tell you that there aren't nearly as many people trying to tune their own cars with open source tuning, or even Cobb street tuner for that matter. Sure the AP is great for those that don't have the time, or don't want to learn how to tune, but I feel as if it has somewhat dumbed down the Subaru community when it comes to understanding tuning, and how changing certain things affects the cars performance.
Yes, Cobb did come out with street tuner software for the everyday user for the STI, but it cost $400. The price for evo street tuner probably won't be much different. The overall economics of using Cobb vs. ecuflash doesn't makes sense to me, but that my opinion. You pay $695 for an AP, plus whatever a tuner decides to charge you for a custom map(s). This is usually $300-500. A custom map will pretty much be required after you have exceeded Cobbs part requirements to use their off the shelf maps (OTS), which right now is just the addition of a TBE which is stage 2. So once you start throwing more performance parts on, it will be time to start getting "protuned" to get the most out of your setup. Plus you can kiss that cobb backing their product stuff right out the window once you start getting "protuned". From what I've seen coming over here to the darkside, the ecuflash tuners are very reasonable on pricing. Plus they seem more willing to go back and forth with datalogs and maps. Sure you could tune your evo using street tuner once its released by Cobb, but then you have $1000+ into tuning. For that amount of money, I can purchase a freaking ODII scanner, tactrix cable, laptop, and get a custom flash from a tuner to get me going.
Yes the AP is small and protable, and you can flash a real time map into your ecu whenever you want, but that fact is, you most likely won't be using this feature as much as you think. The only time I flashed in a real time map was when I switched over to race gas. It also reads and displays different parameters from the ecu, but it doesn't give max values of these parameters. The STI AP 2 can only read up to 18.5 psi. So if you own an STI and are tuned for 20 psi, the max it will read is 18.5. It also does the samething with the other live readings it displays. It might be somewhat different for the Evo, but I doubt it varies that much.
Like I stated before, the Cobb AP is a great tool for beginners, or those that don't want to learn, but for me, I'm glad I found ecuflash!
Yes, Cobb did come out with street tuner software for the everyday user for the STI, but it cost $400. The price for evo street tuner probably won't be much different. The overall economics of using Cobb vs. ecuflash doesn't makes sense to me, but that my opinion. You pay $695 for an AP, plus whatever a tuner decides to charge you for a custom map(s). This is usually $300-500. A custom map will pretty much be required after you have exceeded Cobbs part requirements to use their off the shelf maps (OTS), which right now is just the addition of a TBE which is stage 2. So once you start throwing more performance parts on, it will be time to start getting "protuned" to get the most out of your setup. Plus you can kiss that cobb backing their product stuff right out the window once you start getting "protuned". From what I've seen coming over here to the darkside, the ecuflash tuners are very reasonable on pricing. Plus they seem more willing to go back and forth with datalogs and maps. Sure you could tune your evo using street tuner once its released by Cobb, but then you have $1000+ into tuning. For that amount of money, I can purchase a freaking ODII scanner, tactrix cable, laptop, and get a custom flash from a tuner to get me going.
Yes the AP is small and protable, and you can flash a real time map into your ecu whenever you want, but that fact is, you most likely won't be using this feature as much as you think. The only time I flashed in a real time map was when I switched over to race gas. It also reads and displays different parameters from the ecu, but it doesn't give max values of these parameters. The STI AP 2 can only read up to 18.5 psi. So if you own an STI and are tuned for 20 psi, the max it will read is 18.5. It also does the samething with the other live readings it displays. It might be somewhat different for the Evo, but I doubt it varies that much.
Like I stated before, the Cobb AP is a great tool for beginners, or those that don't want to learn, but for me, I'm glad I found ecuflash!
Dec 15, 2007, 11:53 AM
#49
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Pegasus, you are absolutly correct. I am a newbie in the tuning world and currently running the AP with stage 2 on my evo. Its a great tool but I definatly understand the price issue. Some people just dont want to pay 700 plus another 400-500 for a custom tune. I love the AP and dont regret getting it.
Chris@AMS - pm you..
Chris@AMS - pm you..
Dec 15, 2007, 08:21 PM
#55
I cannot believe that AMS would be selling the AP when one can get a lot more for a lot lot less...I think Dell has a sale on laptops right now for <$500 w/ 2GB RAM....Between Ecuflash, ActiveMatrix, and an inexpensive laptop, one can do all that is needed to tune the evo...
Dec 15, 2007, 09:58 PM
#56
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Personnally, coming from the subaru world where the Cobb AP is a huge hit, it was a breathe of fresh air to be able to actually have access to my ecu via ecuflash. For once I don't feel held hostage by someone else whenever I need to make a tuning change to my car. It was a real hassle trying to get tuned everytime I made a part change or wanted to try something else. Unforunately for me, I don't have any "Protuners" around my area, so everytime I needed a tune, I had to get a group of 5-10 people together so I could get the "tuner" to make a trip out to my area. Then if the tune had an issue, I was left dealing with back and forth emails and phone calls to see if I could get something changed. Then I had to wait for the tuner to email me the updated map, and if that didn't fix my issue, it was back to square one. I'm still a very active member on the subaru forums, and I can tell you that there aren't nearly as many people trying to tune their own cars with open source tuning, or even Cobb street tuner for that matter. Sure the AP is great for those that don't have the time, or don't want to learn how to tune, but I feel as if it has somewhat dumbed down the Subaru community when it comes to understanding tuning, and how changing certain things affects the cars performance.
1 - Subaru ecus are more complex and take more time to figure out
2 - Subarus are less easy to use generic or base maps on - they are very individually fussy
3 - Subarus are a lot easier to damage the motor than Evos with bad tuning
The reality is that the "economics" of any 'for profit' enterprize will have a hard time to compete with a "free" application. They certainly can not compete on price.
Where they have to compete is on features, funtion and service.It always boils down to individual preference and budget to decide what products work for each customer.
I agree that the AP2 does not make sense for do it yourself tuners.
The reality is that the vast majoriety of customers we see at the dyno shop are not do it yourself tuners.
My review of the AP2 is that it is a premium product which gives a premium set of features at a premium price.
Al
Dec 18, 2007, 09:05 AM
#58
...
The reality is that the "economics" of any 'for profit' enterprize will have a hard time to compete with a "free" application. They certainly can not compete on price. Where they have to compete is on features, funtion and service.
It always boils down to individual preference and budget to decide what products work for each customer.
I agree that the AP2 does not make sense for do it yourself tuners.
The reality is that the vast majoriety of customers we see at the dyno shop are not do it yourself tuners.
My review of the AP2 is that it is a premium product which gives a premium set of features at a premium price.
Al
The reality is that the "economics" of any 'for profit' enterprize will have a hard time to compete with a "free" application. They certainly can not compete on price.
Where they have to compete is on features, funtion and service.It always boils down to individual preference and budget to decide what products work for each customer.
I agree that the AP2 does not make sense for do it yourself tuners.
The reality is that the vast majoriety of customers we see at the dyno shop are not do it yourself tuners.
My review of the AP2 is that it is a premium product which gives a premium set of features at a premium price.
Al
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