Intake manifold testing.
Jan 31, 2008, 02:40 PM
#16
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You copied off of me Dave.
I was the first to cut off a stock manifold plenium and put on a 4in barrel onto it
But it was for my vr6t Golf
I picked up 33whp doing this to my car over my ported stocker. I think you might find this will work best
I was the first to cut off a stock manifold plenium and put on a 4in barrel onto it
But it was for my vr6t Golf
I picked up 33whp doing this to my car over my ported stocker. I think you might find this will work best
Jan 31, 2008, 03:06 PM
#18
im not sure if all u guys know it or not but intake manifolds are actually calculated pieces. the size and placement of the runners determines where the HP and TQ will hit. they are more than just pretty pieces of polished Aluminum. i have actually seen people calculate where they want their peak TQ to hit and build a intake mani around that formula.
Dave, the one that you built, if that does good are you going to continue making them for the public------>ME!?!?!?
Jan 31, 2008, 04:23 PM
#19
OK a few things.
First, the ported stock intake manifold and 65 mm throttle body together gained right at 15 whp back when we did the testing. I THINK we were on the stock turbo at the time, it's been quite awhile. Somewhere on here the testing might be listed.
I did actually already start this testing last week. The AMS VSR was first. It made quite a bit of difference in the AFR's and required that I add more fuel. I did run into a problem not related and quit the testing. I was hoping to be back at it this week but being tomorrow is Friday, isn't going to happen.
As for this intake, no calculations done on my part. I honestly have NO idea on how to calculate for intake manifold design. As far as this one goes I figure the factory did the correct calculations and runner design when they did their testing. The stock ported has already gone 9.6 at 151 mph on my car. The plenum is just to see what the effect is. Also, in cutting the plenum off and grinding on the intake runners to make this fit we did "lean" the plenum back a little, so this does have a little bit straighter shot into the runners from the plenum.
Map sensor signal will come off one of the ports I put in the plenum.
The test car is my RS. I am running the HTA35r on the car. I am not testing any other turbos, this is a good turbo between the stock types and full drag types.
I am also going to do the testing at a more moderate boost level than the 45 psi I have run my car at the last few times. I have a feeling this is going to require 100 dyno pulls by the time it's all done and I can't see making that many pulls at that boost level. I'm thinking 35 psi is reasonable and as long as I keep all the runs the same it will show the effects of each and power gains.
Yes, I will be re-tuning for each intake. I will NOT be re-tuning for more power, I will be re-tuning to keep the results narrowed down to each intake manifolds design.
Let me explain. The way my car is set up right now I KNOW beyond a doubt that the 684 whp I am making with it is NOT as much as it will make. I know this because I am tuning with fairly low knock counts and AFR's in the mid 11:1's . If I tuned the car at 12.5:1 AFR it would probably gain 20 whp.
I've decided that I am going to set the boost equally on each intake manifold, I am also going to dial in the AFR's too 11.5:1 and then turn the 02 feedback on to keep them as close as possible with each intake swap. I can then see through the feedback if there was a drastic change in the correction % and make note of it. This will speed things up and allow me to dial each one in quickly. I personally, highly doubt, seeing a change in the knock counts. If I do, either by them dropping or raising or will try to equalize it.
In the end this should be good for some nice HP gains. I know AMS's was already up in power when I stopped.
First, the ported stock intake manifold and 65 mm throttle body together gained right at 15 whp back when we did the testing. I THINK we were on the stock turbo at the time, it's been quite awhile. Somewhere on here the testing might be listed.
I did actually already start this testing last week. The AMS VSR was first. It made quite a bit of difference in the AFR's and required that I add more fuel. I did run into a problem not related and quit the testing. I was hoping to be back at it this week but being tomorrow is Friday, isn't going to happen.
As for this intake, no calculations done on my part. I honestly have NO idea on how to calculate for intake manifold design. As far as this one goes I figure the factory did the correct calculations and runner design when they did their testing. The stock ported has already gone 9.6 at 151 mph on my car. The plenum is just to see what the effect is. Also, in cutting the plenum off and grinding on the intake runners to make this fit we did "lean" the plenum back a little, so this does have a little bit straighter shot into the runners from the plenum.
Map sensor signal will come off one of the ports I put in the plenum.
The test car is my RS. I am running the HTA35r on the car. I am not testing any other turbos, this is a good turbo between the stock types and full drag types.
I am also going to do the testing at a more moderate boost level than the 45 psi I have run my car at the last few times. I have a feeling this is going to require 100 dyno pulls by the time it's all done and I can't see making that many pulls at that boost level. I'm thinking 35 psi is reasonable and as long as I keep all the runs the same it will show the effects of each and power gains.
Yes, I will be re-tuning for each intake. I will NOT be re-tuning for more power, I will be re-tuning to keep the results narrowed down to each intake manifolds design.
Let me explain. The way my car is set up right now I KNOW beyond a doubt that the 684 whp I am making with it is NOT as much as it will make. I know this because I am tuning with fairly low knock counts and AFR's in the mid 11:1's . If I tuned the car at 12.5:1 AFR it would probably gain 20 whp.
I've decided that I am going to set the boost equally on each intake manifold, I am also going to dial in the AFR's too 11.5:1 and then turn the 02 feedback on to keep them as close as possible with each intake swap. I can then see through the feedback if there was a drastic change in the correction % and make note of it. This will speed things up and allow me to dial each one in quickly. I personally, highly doubt, seeing a change in the knock counts. If I do, either by them dropping or raising or will try to equalize it.
In the end this should be good for some nice HP gains. I know AMS's was already up in power when I stopped.
Jan 31, 2008, 04:35 PM
#20
I hadn't seen the JM intake, so I went to their site and looked. No, I am not testing that. I did read about it. They picked up 18 whp on a 50 trim with it. The ported stock one and 65mm throttle body gains 15 whp.......
I think there can only be so many "right" ways to do an intake manifold. I feel I have a good mix of what is out there as far as designs go. I also like the companies that I accepted intakes from (well for the most part
. I don't really have any desire to test a bunch of designs that are all just knock offs of other peoples. It would be like testing all the mini-battery trays that have been knocked off us our original.
I think there can only be so many "right" ways to do an intake manifold. I feel I have a good mix of what is out there as far as designs go. I also like the companies that I accepted intakes from (well for the most part
. I don't really have any desire to test a bunch of designs that are all just knock offs of other peoples. It would be like testing all the mini-battery trays that have been knocked off us our original.
Jan 31, 2008, 04:48 PM
#21
I can predict what happens in this test. With your manifold with the stock runners and large plenum you will move the peak torque further into the RPM band, pushing it back the larger it gets.
The fact the Evo is turbo will grant you some leeway in design. There are a lot of articles outlining the math behind this science online. I'm not an expert but I know the effects of lengthening and shortening runners, increasing/decreasing plenum volume, determining TB size.
The factory manifold is well designed for the factory motor, for the factory car driven in all conditions; a good mix of runner size and length to grant the little 2.0 some low end off boost.
What's the goal of this design?
The fact the Evo is turbo will grant you some leeway in design. There are a lot of articles outlining the math behind this science online. I'm not an expert but I know the effects of lengthening and shortening runners, increasing/decreasing plenum volume, determining TB size.
The factory manifold is well designed for the factory motor, for the factory car driven in all conditions; a good mix of runner size and length to grant the little 2.0 some low end off boost.
What's the goal of this design?
Jan 31, 2008, 05:15 PM
#22
The goal is to see what a larger plenum does...........I think I said that.
I know the basics of increasing runner size, changing length of runners and changing the plenum size. The guys earlier in this thread were talking about specific mathmatical equations to design in and using flow software too, that I am completely ignorant on.
I'd also say that the stock manifold will also easily allow for great top end power out of the RPM ranges that Mitsubishi ever thought it would be used at. My car loses no power from 6500 to 8000 rpm, it's a flat line.
I know the basics of increasing runner size, changing length of runners and changing the plenum size. The guys earlier in this thread were talking about specific mathmatical equations to design in and using flow software too, that I am completely ignorant on.
I'd also say that the stock manifold will also easily allow for great top end power out of the RPM ranges that Mitsubishi ever thought it would be used at. My car loses no power from 6500 to 8000 rpm, it's a flat line.
Jan 31, 2008, 05:27 PM
#24
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I have the stocker sitting in my garage right now that you guys ported for me so I'm interested to see how this plays out. I may have to send it back up there for some TLC.
Jan 31, 2008, 05:35 PM
#25
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inneedof, There's only been one variable introduced. The Manifold. Everything else would be constants. If a part is being tested for maximum benefit or power, the only way to get it would be to "TUNE" for it. That allows each part being tested to reach it's maximum gain. If a head is ported, you MUST tune to take advantage of the increased flow. Same goes for a manifold test.
I am aware that everything else would be constant, and i was asking what the constants were. No where in my post did i mention variables, i understand how a test works and really don't need you trying to talk down to me. The question about tune, was more in depth then will it be tuned, but how it will be tuned, at a constant boost pressure? Or for just for max hp.
David it sounds like this will be a nice test, i am excited to see the results
Jan 31, 2008, 07:39 PM
#26
inneedof, what is IHDBC? If it's what I think why are you in this thread?
bimmubishi,
What is my idea of the "perfect manifold"? Well so far it has been the ported stocker as it has gained hp across the entire RPM band. I only tested one other and my test was questioned, which started all this. I started out just to re-test that one intake. It will actually end up leading to some good information and way for use to make more power than we already are...........or so I hope.
The perfect manifold is going to have no losses in the low/midrange, hopefully maybe even some gains and then gains in the higher RPM's. Realistically every intake manifold design out there right now has targeted that goal. It will be interesting to find out who has done their home work.
bimmubishi,
What is my idea of the "perfect manifold"? Well so far it has been the ported stocker as it has gained hp across the entire RPM band. I only tested one other and my test was questioned, which started all this. I started out just to re-test that one intake. It will actually end up leading to some good information and way for use to make more power than we already are...........or so I hope.
The perfect manifold is going to have no losses in the low/midrange, hopefully maybe even some gains and then gains in the higher RPM's. Realistically every intake manifold design out there right now has targeted that goal. It will be interesting to find out who has done their home work.
Jan 31, 2008, 08:52 PM
#28
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I hadn't seen the JM intake, so I went to their site and looked. No, I am not testing that. I did read about it. They picked up 18 whp on a 50 trim with it. The ported stock one and 65mm throttle body gains 15 whp.......
I think there can only be so many "right" ways to do an intake manifold. I feel I have a good mix of what is out there as far as designs go. I also like the companies that I accepted intakes from (well for the most part. I don't really have any desire to test a bunch of designs that are all just knock offs of other peoples. It would be like testing all the mini-battery trays that have been knocked off us our original.
I think there can only be so many "right" ways to do an intake manifold. I feel I have a good mix of what is out there as far as designs go. I also like the companies that I accepted intakes from (well for the most part
. I don't really have any desire to test a bunch of designs that are all just knock offs of other peoples. It would be like testing all the mini-battery trays that have been knocked off us our original.
. Looking forward to the outcome.
Jan 31, 2008, 10:25 PM
#30
I thought somewhere at sometime Dave Buschur said he tested intake manifolds and stated that nothing was to be gained. In fact, Dave said, IIRC, that he lost approximately 30hp when he did his "test." Dave has said numerous times that you really can't do better than the 65mm TB and ported OEM intake manifold "Because that's what I have on my x.xx second car." I would love to know about and/or see the thread where Dave had this new argument he alludes to with someone about intake manifolds.
FWIW, people on this board have already done testing like this (and I'm willing to bet they understand the math behind intake manifold design). Here's one example of such data:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ntake+manifold
FWIW, people on this board have already done testing like this (and I'm willing to bet they understand the math behind intake manifold design). Here's one example of such data:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ntake+manifold