David Buschur

iTrader: (53)

VW, you have a completely different animal than the rest of these guys........you have the MIVEC. I will have to work on your car and see what I can make with it. I haven't made over 500 whp on pump gas on an EVO9 yet. In theory, it should be easier to do, we'll see. The E85 will easily allow for atleast 30 psi of boost but the 1200's will get marginal. I have some new fuel system stuff at the shop though that might make it possible.

Peter, that's a good one. You're right though, I haven't had pump gas in my car in well over a year! haha. I had some E85, does that count. What are you and Tom working on? Shoot me a PM.

BocaShula

iTrader: (11)

crazy

vwjeff

iTrader: (13)

much better eric

vwjeff

iTrader: (13)

OK man see ya friday for beers.

thanks

scorke

iTrader: (18)

The fact that you are an employee or a "tuner" that has tuned a bunch of cars the fact that you come on here calling out somebody who has been doing it for a long time means that you are not an idiot, just misinformed.

I read way more than I post buddy.

Scorke

dxbevo9

iTrader: (6)

thats why they are still driving honda's hahahahahha

reactionevo8

iTrader: (18)

there is nothing wrong with hondas,so i dont know why you think you are funny seriously this shouldnt turn into a brand vs brand debate...i just like reading the technical posts and explanations by the guys who really seem to know there stuff,not just the guys saying "my car is better cause its X brand and you are dumb and drive a fwd." get real

dxbevo9

iTrader: (6)

dude...i dont think i am funny...I KNOW I AM...

as a matter of fact i like honda's myself..my above comment is something my brain ordered my fingers to type...

now go back to that corner of yours and finish up your PMSing...coz i am not going to lend you more attention than i already did..

now back on topic..

**edit just for reference i had a turbo civic back in the day and i upgraded to the Evo...cheers

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

I take you are talking about a GT30 or above when you say 20-22psi is "dangerous" on aftermarket turbos.

If that is indeed your rule of thumb, then those are some slow cars. 20-22psi on bigger turbos isn't even doing anything. Please don't take this as an attack on you at all. It is not my point at all.

I've seen 60whp gains from 20psi to 24psi (flat across) on a FP3065, on 91 oct California pump gas, with a tune that is consistent and knock free pull to pull to pull. I even heat soaked the hell out of the car on the dyno to make sure it was consistent and knock free, then did 4 pulls back to back with no cool down. As in, "start" do a pull, let the rollers slow down, "start", do a pull, let the rollers roll down, etc etc.

It really is all about the combination and "thinking outside the box". I have to admit, the first time I saw that Buschur was running 30psi on pump gas I shook my head and said, "no way, no chance in hell", but I have since learned that it could really be possible. I don't think I would want to try it on 91oct however, or maybe I will and see.

I really agree with what MalibuJack and Ted B are saying in this thread. Rules are made to be broken, as long as they are broken in a safe and smart way.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I remember about a year ago, I had noticed with a real conservative tune that I kept being able to turn up the boost on my stock turbo, and had really good results until I just ran out of turbo. I never really posted about it because I thought it was something unique about my car or combination. The few times I had claimed anything like this on local forums, I got called out as being either BS'ing or outright lying. Hence the reason I don't care to post any info about my car any longer. Originally I had thought (as most others) that producing the best power meant lower boost and more timing.. After this past year, I had found although its still a balance, raising the boost (within SAFE limits) made a bigger difference.

My car had been out of the loop for awhile during my move. I had the boost at around 21psi for the longest time, with a really conservative tune (very rich and pretty conservative timing) The other day I turned it up to 27psi, while logging I had no knock, and plenty of fuel to do this, I just did some logging and tuning on the country roads over here, and did a third gear pull and it was a night and day difference. This was one of the first times in awhile I had tried to do anything on pump gas since I first installed my GT35r. I remember mid last year when I made my first set of pulls and tunes on pump with the 35r, and I was astonished at the results, so much so that I kept it to myself because I thought something was wrong.

Keep in mind that the HTA35r doesn't change the peak numbers much, but adds alot under the curve, according to most of the graphs I had seen, it spooled earlier, and maintained the horsepower a bit better. Add a good head and cam combo, better intercooler, and more efficient intake manifold design and upgraded throttlebody, and you've eliminated the last of the quirks that I had been fighting.

This car is just a perfect by the numbers combination. Its exactly what I would have expected from Buschur to come up with, as its exactly what I would have done myself if I had the money to finish my project faster.

I'm not sure why there are people fighting to accept some of these dyno proven results, I mean, I do understand the reluctance, but demanding theory and technobabble just to get an explanation when its just not necessary. Make air go in better, make air come out easier, make more power. Take control of all of the aspects of boost, timing, and fueling, make more power.. Its NOT rocket science, nor does it require alot of explanation.

Some people just have a 'feel' for what works. You don't have to take their word for it, you can figure it out yourself after some trial and error. But alot of this work has been done for you.

About some of the posts from non-Evo owners and shops, common consensus has always been that over 20psi was dangerous, on normally aspirated motors, with inherant design differences than the Evo block and head, yes, I would tend to agree.. But 20psi with less heat is more dense than 20psi with alot more heat, this is where reducing restrictions, and using more efficient hardware comes into play, as restrictions that cause turbulence, or change the size of pipes, or intercoolers that are too small, or too much pressure drop, end up hurting and adding more heat. One other engine I had seen respond really well to boost was the Acura RSX-S engine, of course, it responded well to N/A mods also (This is the car Pete owned BEFORE the Evo) His RSX was quick and responded well to mods. I have seen some on low boost and good tuning make 300+ whp, and that was years ago when I was still interested in those engines. The key was that engine got a good head design, though it still suffered some of the cost cutting tricks that honda engineers threw into it.

Anyway, my point is that if we all listened to "common consensus" and "Common practice" we'd all still be driving 250hp Carbureted V8 engines which hadn't changed in 50 years.. And even the v8 guys are starting to accept new technology and the tools we have been using (I'm one of those V8 guys who is transferring ALOT of what I had learned about EFI, Tuning, Turbocharging, to the old school)

Here is what it comes down to:

1) Pete is looking to make the best power on pump gas
2) He is willing to pay the price in dollars and broken parts to find it
3) He has chosen the right shop to get him there
4) They are trying things that people have not been willing or able to try
5) They are TALKING about some of these tricks that some of us have been aware of for awhile, but have chosen not to discuss for the reasons seen in this thread.
6) HE HAS 600WHP on FRIGGIN PUMP.. And Dyno sheets and soon enough, Drag times to prove it.
7) This is PETE we're talking about here, as I've said in another post, the only person I've met more insane than I am.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

BTW I still can't figure out where he comes up with the money or time to try all this stuff, but more power to him.

Ted B

iTrader: (6)

My comment still stands as far as what happens. Where we were all premature in our thinking is where it happens in the manifold pressure / ignition timing matrix. At some point, raising the boost further isn't going to work. We still don't know exactly where that will usually be . . . yet. Although I should point out that it will vary given a host of factors.

Illrunya

iTrader: (7)

Im looking forward to these developments with the EVO 9 since I have one. I hope to see you work your magic on a 9 on pump gas soon DB!!!!

SloRice

iTrader: (8)

Simple version of what Malibu Jack and Ted B are saying.....

Look at it this way, what makes more power, 1psi of boost or 1 degree of timing advance? Usually 1psi of boost will make more power than 1 degree of timing. It will probably make about 10-20whp more in the 20-30psi range on a 35R. So instead of making power with timing like most do at 20psi. Take the timing way down and add a bunch of boost. Yea, you're loosing 5whp or so per degree of timing you take out. But you're adding 10-20whp with each psi of boost. So you are still adding power.

Obviously though, the law of diminishing returns will come into play and you will get to a point where you can no longer pull timing and add boost and make more power.

crcain

To all those wondering how to do this and what is the secret...

I think the answer lies not in how to do it, but how not to do it.

For example, show me a well setup Evo... good headwork, nice cams, good intercooler, good turbo kit, nice exhaust... and then strap the thing on the dyno, map the car to 30 psi of boost. Depending on cams, compression ratio, and many other factors, you might have 10 degrees ignition advance or you might have zero at peak torque. It all depends. The point is, the car is mapped to 30 psi on pump with no det.

Now here is where the proof comes in. Do a pull at 20 psi... then at 22 psi... then at 24 psi... all the way to 30 psi. Then... post on this forum the results. If high boost is not possible on pump with a well setup Evo... you should be able to show you LOST power from raising boost at certain point.

Is it easy to make as much power as U2SLO? No... but is it relatively straight forward to run high boost on pump in a well setup Evo... yes.

Honestly, for this whole subject to come up so late in the game... I have to believe this shows a lack of experience of tuners in the Evo scene who post on this board. Who are the tuners who post on this board with regularity?

- Dave Buschur
- AMS
- Sean Ivey
- Al Friedman
- etc

Now tell me, which one of these tuners has been tuning EFI turbo customer cars for more than 5 years? How about more than 4?

I have absolutely no idea of the experiences of the above named people. Except Dave Buschur who has elaborated on them in this thread. Anybody know?