Another new PUMP gas record, thanks Driven Innovations
Feb 25, 2008, 09:32 AM
#346
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Did not mean to be taking away from your achievement. Your car is awesome. But there are lighter street Evos 
You don't want to know what my two friend Evo III RS's weigh stock.... about 400 lbs lighter than a VI RS factory spec! And my friend has a new engine and PT67 kit he is gonna throw in his 3!
Props to you though... normal Evo 8/9's must feel pretty lardy now after driving your car.
You don't want to know what my two friend Evo III RS's weigh stock.... about 400 lbs lighter than a VI RS factory spec! And my friend has a new engine and PT67 kit he is gonna throw in his 3!
Props to you though... normal Evo 8/9's must feel pretty lardy now after driving your car.
Feb 25, 2008, 09:35 AM
#347
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To all those wondering how to do this and what is the secret...
I think the answer lies not in how to do it, but how not to do it.
For example, show me a well setup Evo... good headwork, nice cams, good intercooler, good turbo kit, nice exhaust... and then strap the thing on the dyno, map the car to 30 psi of boost. Depending on cams, compression ratio, and many other factors, you might have 10 degrees ignition advance or you might have zero at peak torque. It all depends. The point is, the car is mapped to 30 psi on pump with no det.
Now here is where the proof comes in. Do a pull at 20 psi... then at 22 psi... then at 24 psi... all the way to 30 psi. Then... post on this forum the results. If high boost is not possible on pump with a well setup Evo... you should be able to show you LOST power from raising boost at certain point.
Is it easy to make as much power as U2SLO? No... but is it relatively straight forward to run high boost on pump in a well setup Evo... yes.
Honestly, for this whole subject to come up so late in the game... I have to believe this shows a lack of experience of tuners in the Evo scene who post on this board. Who are the tuners who post on this board with regularity?
- Dave Buschur
- AMS
- Sean Ivey
- Al Friedman
- etc
Now tell me, which one of these tuners has been tuning EFI turbo customer cars for more than 5 years? How about more than 4?
I have absolutely no idea of the experiences of the above named people. Except Dave Buschur who has elaborated on them in this thread. Anybody know?
I think the answer lies not in how to do it, but how not to do it.
For example, show me a well setup Evo... good headwork, nice cams, good intercooler, good turbo kit, nice exhaust... and then strap the thing on the dyno, map the car to 30 psi of boost. Depending on cams, compression ratio, and many other factors, you might have 10 degrees ignition advance or you might have zero at peak torque. It all depends. The point is, the car is mapped to 30 psi on pump with no det.
Now here is where the proof comes in. Do a pull at 20 psi... then at 22 psi... then at 24 psi... all the way to 30 psi. Then... post on this forum the results. If high boost is not possible on pump with a well setup Evo... you should be able to show you LOST power from raising boost at certain point.
Is it easy to make as much power as U2SLO? No... but is it relatively straight forward to run high boost on pump in a well setup Evo... yes.
Honestly, for this whole subject to come up so late in the game... I have to believe this shows a lack of experience of tuners in the Evo scene who post on this board. Who are the tuners who post on this board with regularity?
- Dave Buschur
- AMS
- Sean Ivey
- Al Friedman
- etc
Now tell me, which one of these tuners has been tuning EFI turbo customer cars for more than 5 years? How about more than 4?
I have absolutely no idea of the experiences of the above named people. Except Dave Buschur who has elaborated on them in this thread. Anybody know?
To ask about my experience, I have been working on cars for the past 28 years - starting with a turbo charged 1966 Chevy Corvair. I only started tuning EFI in 2001 with the LINK system. I have tuned a lot of cars since then and I have probably tuned more evos than anyone else in the US.
Speaking from my own perspective, since 90% of my tuning is on the stock ecu, in most cases you can not push this hard with the knock sensor attached without pulling timing. This is why I had been concentrating more and more on alcohol injection with Aquamist kits which have given really good results.
IMHO the principle factors which has made this kind of result possible on pump gas is the advancements in turbo charger wheel technology and fmic core design. Turbos are getting better and better and the new HTA Gt35 is so efficient it really opens up new concepts in tuning.
At the end of the day - when you look at the Sharkbite2000 car tuned by AMS making 420 whp on pump gas on our dyno at 23.7 psi of boost and then you look at the BAD BISH car making 620 whp at 30 psi of boost it is clear that one car is tuned to be ultra reliable and conservative on pump gas. From my own perspective there may still be some merrit to maintaining conservative pump gas tuning goals - even if it is possible to make more power.
After all, pump gas varies in quality level significantly from tank to tank.
Additionally, this kind of result requires a perfect balance of parts.
What I fear about this is that many customers who are ill prepared to duplicate these kind of results may attempt to duplicate this power level on pump gas without having all the parts needed.
Feb 25, 2008, 09:41 AM
#349
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I remember about a year ago, I had noticed with a real conservative tune that I kept being able to turn up the boost on my stock turbo, and had really good results until I just ran out of turbo. I never really posted about it because I thought it was something unique about my car or combination. The few times I had claimed anything like this on local forums, I got called out as being either BS'ing or outright lying. Hence the reason I don't care to post any info about my car any longer. Originally I had thought (as most others) that producing the best power meant lower boost and more timing.. After this past year, I had found although its still a balance, raising the boost (within SAFE limits) made a bigger difference.
My car had been out of the loop for awhile during my move. I had the boost at around 21psi for the longest time, with a really conservative tune (very rich and pretty conservative timing) The other day I turned it up to 27psi, while logging I had no knock, and plenty of fuel to do this, I just did some logging and tuning on the country roads over here, and did a third gear pull and it was a night and day difference. This was one of the first times in awhile I had tried to do anything on pump gas since I first installed my GT35r. I remember mid last year when I made my first set of pulls and tunes on pump with the 35r, and I was astonished at the results, so much so that I kept it to myself because I thought something was wrong.
Keep in mind that the HTA35r doesn't change the peak numbers much, but adds alot under the curve, according to most of the graphs I had seen, it spooled earlier, and maintained the horsepower a bit better. Add a good head and cam combo, better intercooler, and more efficient intake manifold design and upgraded throttlebody, and you've eliminated the last of the quirks that I had been fighting.
This car is just a perfect by the numbers combination. Its exactly what I would have expected from Buschur to come up with, as its exactly what I would have done myself if I had the money to finish my project faster.
I'm not sure why there are people fighting to accept some of these dyno proven results, I mean, I do understand the reluctance, but demanding theory and technobabble just to get an explanation when its just not necessary. Make air go in better, make air come out easier, make more power. Take control of all of the aspects of boost, timing, and fueling, make more power.. Its NOT rocket science, nor does it require alot of explanation.
Some people just have a 'feel' for what works. You don't have to take their word for it, you can figure it out yourself after some trial and error. But alot of this work has been done for you.
About some of the posts from non-Evo owners and shops, common consensus has always been that over 20psi was dangerous, on normally aspirated motors, with inherant design differences than the Evo block and head, yes, I would tend to agree.. But 20psi with less heat is more dense than 20psi with alot more heat, this is where reducing restrictions, and using more efficient hardware comes into play, as restrictions that cause turbulence, or change the size of pipes, or intercoolers that are too small, or too much pressure drop, end up hurting and adding more heat. One other engine I had seen respond really well to boost was the Acura RSX-S engine, of course, it responded well to N/A mods also (This is the car Pete owned BEFORE the Evo) His RSX was quick and responded well to mods. I have seen some on low boost and good tuning make 300+ whp, and that was years ago when I was still interested in those engines. The key was that engine got a good head design, though it still suffered some of the cost cutting tricks that honda engineers threw into it.
Anyway, my point is that if we all listened to "common consensus" and "Common practice" we'd all still be driving 250hp Carbureted V8 engines which hadn't changed in 50 years.. And even the v8 guys are starting to accept new technology and the tools we have been using (I'm one of those V8 guys who is transferring ALOT of what I had learned about EFI, Tuning, Turbocharging, to the old school)
Here is what it comes down to:
1) Pete is looking to make the best power on pump gas
2) He is willing to pay the price in dollars and broken parts to find it
3) He has chosen the right shop to get him there
4) They are trying things that people have not been willing or able to try
5) They are TALKING about some of these tricks that some of us have been aware of for awhile, but have chosen not to discuss for the reasons seen in this thread.
6) HE HAS 600WHP on FRIGGIN PUMP.. And Dyno sheets and soon enough, Drag times to prove it.
7) This is PETE we're talking about here, as I've said in another post, the only person I've met more insane than I am.
My car had been out of the loop for awhile during my move. I had the boost at around 21psi for the longest time, with a really conservative tune (very rich and pretty conservative timing) The other day I turned it up to 27psi, while logging I had no knock, and plenty of fuel to do this, I just did some logging and tuning on the country roads over here, and did a third gear pull and it was a night and day difference. This was one of the first times in awhile I had tried to do anything on pump gas since I first installed my GT35r. I remember mid last year when I made my first set of pulls and tunes on pump with the 35r, and I was astonished at the results, so much so that I kept it to myself because I thought something was wrong.
Keep in mind that the HTA35r doesn't change the peak numbers much, but adds alot under the curve, according to most of the graphs I had seen, it spooled earlier, and maintained the horsepower a bit better. Add a good head and cam combo, better intercooler, and more efficient intake manifold design and upgraded throttlebody, and you've eliminated the last of the quirks that I had been fighting.
This car is just a perfect by the numbers combination. Its exactly what I would have expected from Buschur to come up with, as its exactly what I would have done myself if I had the money to finish my project faster.
I'm not sure why there are people fighting to accept some of these dyno proven results, I mean, I do understand the reluctance, but demanding theory and technobabble just to get an explanation when its just not necessary. Make air go in better, make air come out easier, make more power. Take control of all of the aspects of boost, timing, and fueling, make more power.. Its NOT rocket science, nor does it require alot of explanation.
Some people just have a 'feel' for what works. You don't have to take their word for it, you can figure it out yourself after some trial and error. But alot of this work has been done for you.
About some of the posts from non-Evo owners and shops, common consensus has always been that over 20psi was dangerous, on normally aspirated motors, with inherant design differences than the Evo block and head, yes, I would tend to agree.. But 20psi with less heat is more dense than 20psi with alot more heat, this is where reducing restrictions, and using more efficient hardware comes into play, as restrictions that cause turbulence, or change the size of pipes, or intercoolers that are too small, or too much pressure drop, end up hurting and adding more heat. One other engine I had seen respond really well to boost was the Acura RSX-S engine, of course, it responded well to N/A mods also (This is the car Pete owned BEFORE the Evo) His RSX was quick and responded well to mods. I have seen some on low boost and good tuning make 300+ whp, and that was years ago when I was still interested in those engines. The key was that engine got a good head design, though it still suffered some of the cost cutting tricks that honda engineers threw into it.
Anyway, my point is that if we all listened to "common consensus" and "Common practice" we'd all still be driving 250hp Carbureted V8 engines which hadn't changed in 50 years.. And even the v8 guys are starting to accept new technology and the tools we have been using (I'm one of those V8 guys who is transferring ALOT of what I had learned about EFI, Tuning, Turbocharging, to the old school)
Here is what it comes down to:
1) Pete is looking to make the best power on pump gas
2) He is willing to pay the price in dollars and broken parts to find it
3) He has chosen the right shop to get him there
4) They are trying things that people have not been willing or able to try
5) They are TALKING about some of these tricks that some of us have been aware of for awhile, but have chosen not to discuss for the reasons seen in this thread.
6) HE HAS 600WHP on FRIGGIN PUMP.. And Dyno sheets and soon enough, Drag times to prove it.
7) This is PETE we're talking about here, as I've said in another post, the only person I've met more insane than I am.
Feb 25, 2008, 10:43 AM
#352
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Mark Snead is the UK builder/tuner whose work crcain was referencing. He's been using considerably higher boost pressures than we do for quite some time (as is evident in their forum), and with good results. Crcain illustrated this on multiple occasions some time ago, right here in this forum.
At first, I wrote it off as a difference in the fuel, dynos, etc., but that was incorrect. The fact that they don't usually give a hoot about drag racing gave no yardstick there either.
At first, I wrote it off as a difference in the fuel, dynos, etc., but that was incorrect. The fact that they don't usually give a hoot about drag racing gave no yardstick there either.
Hey Guys get my name right
Mark Shead ,One question to you all I see about pump fuel records but what does the car run every day,
If mine makes 600hp it makes it every day and every Rolling road i.e Dyno dynamic's run in shootout mode, All of them run max boost all of the time with no playing to make the power for the day.
Mark
Feb 25, 2008, 10:57 AM
#353
Well Mark, the two guys Dave mentions, Trent and U2SLO in this thread, I think both run the same boost pressure everyday as they did when dyno'd. But I guess they can answer that with authority.
But don't worry Mark... I think you must have the pump fuel Evo record at 822 hp with Moses' engine. Or have you made more power than that on pump?
Mark, at what point did you start mapping turbo engines for high boost on pump?
But don't worry Mark... I think you must have the pump fuel Evo record at 822 hp with Moses' engine. Or have you made more power than that on pump?
Mark, at what point did you start mapping turbo engines for high boost on pump?
Feb 25, 2008, 11:23 AM
#354
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My best answer is:
1) In the beginning, you have to start SOMEWHERE. Most of my research led me to the 20 psi number from other peoples setups, compression ratios, other engine builders advice.
2) after i had some "book" knowledge, my real world experience came from several tuned setups (hondas mostly) on pump gas. We would see detonation on anything past 20-22psi on our 93 octane. you could see it in the graph and on the plugs. This wasnt ALWAYS the case, but more often than not, a car with a 9 or 10:1 engine on boost , past 20psi was "pushing it" in our minds.
We didnt have the luxury to push the car until it broke, so yes, ill concede that the "barrier" was more mental than physical. COULD certain cars have made more? probably, but it was at the limit of safety. It wasnt worth POTENTIALLY blowing up a customers car to achieve a number on pump gas. We opted to just put 4-5 gallons of c16 in the car and continue on.
Did i ever really TRY a big number on pump gas? never tried anything over 20psi, that was our "barrier" for street cars and safety.
Although i did have a few 500whp 2.0L hondas @19-20psi with GT3582Rs.
Feb 25, 2008, 11:31 AM
#355
It sounds to me like you tuned some cars without pushing them to det? If so, how do you know what safety margin you have in a tune without pushing them to det?
If you stopped at 20 psi for a tune.... didn't you ever wonder what might happen with 2 psi more boost and a degree or two less ignition advance?
If you stopped at 20 psi for a tune.... didn't you ever wonder what might happen with 2 psi more boost and a degree or two less ignition advance?
Feb 25, 2008, 11:40 AM
#357
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It sounds to me like you tuned some cars without pushing them to det? If so, how do you know what safety margin you have in a tune without pushing them to det?
If you stopped at 20 psi for a tune.... didn't you ever wonder what might happen with 2 psi more boost and a degree or two less ignition advance?
If you stopped at 20 psi for a tune.... didn't you ever wonder what might happen with 2 psi more boost and a degree or two less ignition advance?
To me that builds EGT temps to unsafe levels, makes the motor lazy, hurts throttle response, VE, and more.
I wouldnt want to push a car TOWARDS det either, as det with a turbo that big, i dont care how well its built, CAN be deadly.
So, in my "sandbox", i wouldnt push a car past 20psi with the kind of timing i would run.
Now, let me say i have PUSHED my personal cars and friends cars. We ran 30 degrees of timing in a race car on C16 (which was unheard of) 4 years ago on a LSVTEC 30psi T3/T67 2.0l honda that made 639whp. I ran my 12.5:1 compression 2.0l NA VTEC motor at 14:1 on pump gas and i made 240whp (highest in the state) something pople said was "too dangerous" to run an NA car that lean. But thats where it made power. SO im not opposed to trying new things, just what you guys are talking about seems too dangerous.
But Bushur has done it a few times, so, who am i to say its too dangerous, its just my personal opinion.
Now this is where it seems we both differ. I prefer an engine with the max amount of timing you can run safely on pump gas (which prob gives me a threshhold of around 20psi).
You seem to prefer sacrificing ignition advance for power on pump.
2 different schools of thought
Feb 25, 2008, 11:46 AM
#358
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Well Mark, the two guys Dave mentions, Trent and U2SLO in this thread, I think both run the same boost pressure everyday as they did when dyno'd. But I guess they can answer that with authority.
But don't worry Mark... I think you must have the pump fuel Evo record at 822 hp with Moses' engine. Or have you made more power than that on pump?
Mark, at what point did you start mapping turbo engines for high boost on pump?
But don't worry Mark... I think you must have the pump fuel Evo record at 822 hp with Moses' engine. Or have you made more power than that on pump?
Mark, at what point did you start mapping turbo engines for high boost on pump?
I started mapping/running high boosted engines in 1995, 37psi Cosworth RS500 engine then making 545hp 491ftlb, the next higher boost was about 1997 at 42psi, and many after more than I can count,
The secret is know to map them with the correct monitoring equipment and the depth of knowedge behind it, I am not someone that has read a few books and looked at what is written on the net
I have been tuning since 93,Also using the correct spec parts helps also but a bad tune can blow anything up in seconds.
Mark
Feb 25, 2008, 11:53 AM
#359
Just stopping at 20 psi or some random number and saying, "yep thats good", is not a school of thought. As a tuner you should max out the perfomance of an engine setup safely. If you don't know when the engine will det, and you don't know whether more boost will make more power, you are not doing your job.