mike1023

iTrader: (11)

well i think people would much rather not run the risk thats the only thing. that is why they have a pump gas map to run for many many as that is for there every day driving, and then they have a race gas map for as much power and boost and everything they can get out of the car for the track days.

crcain

But as a tuner, aren't you doing your customers a tremendous disservice by leaving gobs of power on the table with their pump gas maps? It's mostly young guys spending every last dollar they have to make big power, and in the end they could have made the same numbers with a Green on a stock motor and saved 15k.

Paul Nelson

iTrader: (1)

aww np David im just a hot head sometimes and yes you have done awesome to respect my threads I get excited to see AL go fast. He has been working on it since i bought my evo. Shoot he was my first ecu flash was AL lol

I really hope all of us this year hits our goals especially Al!

mike1023

iTrader: (11)

Well i hear were you are coming from. as i em young and i wanted the most power i can get out of the car on pump and race gas to set recored. but the thing is that the stock turbo can not hold the boost and you will make maybe at most 10hp more then if you have at low boost. what happen with us my turbo boosted to 37psi and dropped so hard because was way to hot. so we found running at 30-34psi spike was best power. but then if we took it to say 26psi we make less top hp but the end power band would hold better. so this is hard to say which is good. its more you have to look at the dyno graph and see which power band is better.

DynoFlash

iTrader: (91)

I can't speak for other tuners - this is my opinion

90% of my tuning is based on tuning the stock ecu

90% of my customers do not have built motors

90% of my customers do not have optimal set ups - e.g. Buschur head, Buschur turbo kits, etc etc etc

Therefore, the reality is that the vast majority of my customers are running mildy modifed, daily driven cars running on pump gas

Most if not all of the customers expect the motors to last 100,000 miles and also do not regularly monitor data logs and knock / egt etc

The reality is that most of then are within a very narrow window of optimal power delivery before the stock knock sensor picks up knock and or before the car actually knocks. This is particularly the case with my customers running 91 octane where much of my effort is spent avoiding knock.

The idea as you suggest that there is these huge amounts of power left on the table by inexperienced US tuners is erroneous.

Cars which can make big power on pump gas are limited to those with extreme turbo, engine and head work which have much less back pressure and more optimal VE than stock turbo / engine cars.

Al

DynoFlash

iTrader: (91)

I have been working on it since I was the first to go 11's on the stock turbo in April of 2003

BTW - I have no goal other than to enjoy my car

Indy Evo

iTrader: (41)

crcain

Al you have probably tuned a lot of Evo Green's with stock bottom ends, cams, etc....

Did you find it was difficult to run 28 psi on these setups without knock? I'm wondering how accurate the stock ECU knock detection becomes with many mods including cams, valve springs, etc....

Mellon Racing

iTrader: (38)

Keep in mind that just because some cars can run 30psi on pump doesn't mean it works for every car...slap together some shoddy parts and the car just isn't going to allow it.

9sec9

iTrader: (2)

OK, I'm ready to learn some more. I know nothing, (maybe a little) about tuning the Evo with anything other than the stock map sensors. I pray to god that they do their job. My assumption is that the factory cares about keeping the motor together when it is in stock form with stock ecu. They have a vested interest so to speak. With the stock sensors 'looking for the same thresholds' as the engine will divulge, whether that's built or stock, doesn't it seem plausible that the sensors will do their job, if left in stock form? If not, what could be done to correct the 'false' sense(or) of security?

LV///R

iTrader: (36)

Don't take this the wrong way, but I've read your posts. You like to question things. I think that there is nothing wrong with that. I'm the same way.

However...

I really think you need to re-read TedB's post as well as Al's. They summed it up for you, yet you're still questioning "it". As TedB was hinting at, we've had the Evo since only 2003 in the states. Doesn't that mean anything? Yes, the 4G63 has been in the eclipse for sometime, but there are differences between the evo and Eclipe/Talon/Laser.

Stating 99% of evo owners in the states run 23psi is just plain ignorant.

You talk about all these evos in the UK running 30psi (give or take a pound), yet when I did a search on MLR, most people are recommending to run much less than that. From what I've gathered, its around 23-25psi. Seems about average for what we run here.

Please, crcain, show us all of these people from the UK that have been running 30psi for years, on a stock block/ turbo/on a "well put together evo".


I really think that your underlying issue is that you just want the UK to be noticed/recognized over here in the states. That's understandable as I see where you are coming from. Although hearing it over and over though becomes mind numbing.

crcain

I hear what your saying ill_take_one... I'm not saying guys in the UK with stock blocks are running big boost. In the UK they are deffo less agressive on stock motors than people in the states. For the most part what I've been talking about is the guys with built bottom ends and larger turbos. I can safely say in the last several years I've never seen a GT30 or larger run less than 2 bar on pump on the MLR.

As for evidence, it's really hard to search for sheets random people posted several years ago. Maybe I can get Mark to link to some cars he has done a couple years ago to make it easier.

9sec9.. Mark uses home made det cans and swears by them. No knock sensor usage at all. I've learned from Mark and my own tuning of friends cars how to listen for knock. It's actually quite easy and I think quite effective.

How effective is the AEM or stock ECU knock sensors on a built motor and head with wild cams and big boost? I don't know. I think tuners who don't solely rely on the electronic systems would know as they might see knock, check with det cans, and then say, oh, that is not knock.

Some info here with Ted B and Mark talking about knock with a pic I attached of Marks headphones he rigs up. Very easy to do.

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/at...5&d=1184096176

DynoFlash

iTrader: (91)

The stock knock sesnor which is a mic which converts sound into a 0 - 5 volt signal is calibrated for stock engines with stock power level

After you start to modify the engine and power level the knock sesnor becomes less and less acurate at discerning knock from engine sound

Looking at the spark plugs and listening to the sounds is the only way to tell what is sound and what is detonation

9sec9

iTrader: (2)

Thanks to crcain and Al. I'm pretty good about reading plugs, but a little light on the detect cans. I'll go to crcain's post. thanks for the info.

crcain

Al if you are listening with naked ear I strongly recommend checking this thread and using the type of det can setup Mark likes in this thread here:

OOOPS... in my previous post I linked to the pic of Mark's headphones... here is the actual thread:

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=274816