Twin-scroll skeptics...
Apr 2, 2010, 09:42 AM
#226
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...a-750awhp.html
Conventional manifolds that fit with full radiators and AC must include short radius bends and such that compromise power as sure as death and taxes. Your manifold has all the hallmarks of good design when spatial considerations are eliminated. I'd love to be able to fit one of those in my car, but I'm not willing to make the compromises necessary to do it.
Also, running a Dynojet uncorrected in 20 degree weather shows a ~50whp improvement versus standard temperature (77 F) with a 700whp car. In 20 deg conditions, my 565whp car soars to 605whp (uncorrected) on 93 octane. Pretty neat.
Lastly, indicated boost pressure is an factor of resistance. 700whp is 700whp. Whether it comes at 30psi or 40psi is mostly academic. I think it's great that Tym has done a good job in showing what the HTA3582 can do when the all stops are pulled out, as in your car. 750whp (uncorrected) at 40psi on race gas looks great. For most however, that isn't practical, which is why there aren't regular 35R cars running around with 650whp on 'low boost'. Actually, I don't recall seeing many regular 35R cars running around with 650whp period.
Apr 2, 2010, 09:54 AM
#227
The only thing that proves is that a 35R in a no compromise, fully purpose built car, on race fuel, with 40psi can achieve an nicely inflated 750whp - 'Dynojet uncorrected in 20 degree weather' 
Everyone has their own interpretation of what 'very low boost' is, so please explain to me what you consider a 'very low boost' 35R @ 650whp is...
Last edited by Philthy748; Apr 2, 2010 at 10:03 AM.
Apr 2, 2010, 10:24 AM
#228
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Here is my contribution to this thread...open scroll hta3582r w/a .82 A/R turbine housing running E70 for fuel.
This turbo has some left in it for sure and simply is an awesome turbo for the street and drag strip (best compromise)...IMO.
This turbo has some left in it for sure and simply is an awesome turbo for the street and drag strip (best compromise)...IMO.
Apr 2, 2010, 10:52 AM
#229
^That's a nice peak number for sure.
AFAIK, compared TS setups like Ted B's, you're still about 1000rpm later to reach full boost, significantly later to reach peak tq, and significantly down on power and torque.
Just reinforces the benefits of TS.
AFAIK, compared TS setups like Ted B's, you're still about 1000rpm later to reach full boost, significantly later to reach peak tq, and significantly down on power and torque.
Just reinforces the benefits of TS.
Apr 2, 2010, 11:17 AM
#231
For Mike/Ivey 
HATERPOINT #1:The HKS CT230R came over from Japan barely prepped and had no practice or setup time at Buttonwillow. Taniguchi has very little experience at Buttonwillow. Blah, blah, blah.
COUNTERPOINT #1: Do you really think for a single moment that a team is going to bring a car all the way over from another country and not prepare the car at all? The Japanese are meticulous people and they WILL prepare. HKS rented Buttonwillow for a couple days before Superlap to test and tune. On top of that, Taniguchi is a fast driver (and fast drinker of whiskey and shochu to boot). Do you think HKS got to where they are today by NOT preparing for situations like Superlap? While it is true that HKS did not go ***** out in changing the car's setup for the US Superlap, it is very untrue that the "car was still setup for Tsukuba so they just rolled it out of the trailer and busted a 1:43.527, packed their bags and went home". *********: even in Japan the CT230R traveled around Japan to set records at tracks across the country. It did not ONLY run at Tsukuba. In my days at Apexi, whenever we brought over a car from Japan like the BCNR33 V-Max drag car or the Drag Integra, we started planning 6-7 months before. I had to generate a schedule, make arrangements, accomodations, transportation, track rental for testing, etc. while the car and race team were here in the US. The cars would come in a 40' container with the car occupying 15 feet and the rest of the container would be stacked to the roof with spare parts. I would have to order slicks (Goodyears are made in the USA), race fuel (Sunoco is also made in the USA), lubricants, supplies, etc. months ahead because my Japanese bosses were so **** about being properly prepared. Why did they need to be so prepared? Because they came to beat records. Not to see what would happen if they tried running their car on an American track. The Apexi V-Max was the fastest full body drag GT-R in the world for 3 years afterwards. Sounds just like the HKS CT230R doesn't it? See the next point.
HATERPOINT #2: Haha, it's about time that Sierra Sierra beat the record with that giant budget they have! HKS has only had the record for 3 years!
COUNTERPOINT #2: It hasn't been 3 years fool, do the math (Nov 2007 to March 2010). The HKS CT230R started life as an EVO 8 and was built in 2006 if I remember correctly. But let's not forget about the original HKS TRB-02 Carbon EVO that was built in early 2002. Taniguchi put the TRB-02 into a wall and totalled it due to a brake malfunction. HKS then took what they learned from the TRB-02 and built the new and improved CT230R. HKS and Taniguchi set the US time attack record in 2007. This means that HKS had been developing a time attack EVO for 5 years up to when the record was set in 2007. How long has Sierra Sierra been running their EVO 8? The first event they competed in was May 2009. We smoked the record in March 2010. It has been 10 months. Yeah, you bet your *** we're going to go faster. On top of this, the Japanese have been "time attacking" for 15 years. We Americans barely started in 2005. And as for the budget what makes you think that a publicly owned company with $90M in sales per year isn't going to spend a small percentage of that on a race car? The rumors of HKS having spent over $2.1M on the time attack EVOs are well true and probably a fraction of what they spent in total. If you were to count the overtime the race team probably spent on the car you can double that figure. It's a good thing for HKS they don't pay overtime in Japan. Fortunately for Sierra Sierra, their trailers, tools, and much of their equipment carried over from their Formula Atlantic team. Just like I'm sure HKS Racing's trailers, tools, and much of their equipment was carried over from one of their many past race cars (old 7M drag Supra, 2J drag Supra, Benz JGTC car, N1 GT-Rs, drag GT-Rs, multitude of N1/Super Taikyu race cars, etc.). In summary, I assure you that HKS has spent FAR MORE money in their EVO time attack program than Sierra Sierra has. Do the simple math: HKS has built at least two super high end time attack EVOs (that we know of). Sierra Sierra is still the smaller company when comparing to HKS.
HATERPOINT #3: The HKS EVO was on A-048s and the Sierra Sierra EVO beat the records on slicks. That's not even close to fair.
COUNTERPOINT #3: Boo ****ing hoo. HKS' A-048s were hardly off the shelf. The GG compound A-048s that Advan produced for HKS were NOT available to the public. They are not not DOT legal (or Japan's equivalent of DOT legal) either. The SSE EVO beat the record on a DOT legal tire. Sure, it only has two grooves down the middle, but it is legal for use on a public road which means it has a street tire casing with steel and/or Kevlar belts, and is hard and thick enough to resist objects found on public roads that can cause punctures. Anybody can go to a Hankook dealer like City Tire or Dynamic Autosports in Southern California and buy a set of C91 tires right over the counter with no questions asked. Try asking Yokohama for a set of GG compound A-048's and they will laugh in your face if the guy you are talking to even knows what the hell a GG Compound is.
HATERPOINT #4: The HKS EVO only makes 450hp. If the SSE EVO is making 500-600hp why is it that it can barely beat the HKS EVO's time?
COUNTERPOINT #4: The reason why is weight. The HKS EVO weighs a measly 1080kg or 2380lb. It really does help if you have a couple hundred grand for molds and plugs so that you can have some pre-preg dry carbon fenders, doors, hood, trunk, etc. fabricated with an autoclave. The HKS EVO had a more thorough diet plan and it is not built to any specific safety specification (I think). You can see the tubes are very small in diameter and are probably fairly thin walled also. The Sierra Sierra EVO weighs 1260kg or 2777lb and is built to FIA spec. If it were homologated, it could probably enter a FIA GT2 race based on safety standards alone. Sure the SSE EVO is overbuilt, but that's only because Richard, the team manager, has seen far too many crashed race cars to be wiling to risk anybody's life for only a quick lap time. Also, the doors, fenders, and bumpers on Christine are wet lay up carbon pieces. They certainly are not as light as the HKS pieces.
HATERPOINT #5: With the amount of resources that Sierra Sierra has, I'd be surprised if they couldn't hit 1:43 by now...
COUNTERPOINT #5: This haterpoint sort of overlaps with #2, but it really does need to be broken down a bit further. The reality is that knowlege is one thing and money is another. Just because a team can run an open wheel formula car, it does not mean that this same team can build a unibody race car and have overnight sucess. Case in point: you have built the fastest S2000, STi, EVO, etc. in the country. Then by some miracle Frank Williams says, "Mate, I'll give you an F1 car and $5M. You need to qualify in a F1 race by the end of the year." Do you think your Honda building *** has even the remotest ****ing clue how to build, maintain, tune, and run an F1 car?!?!? Before you answer that question think about how much you know about rotary dampers, push rod suspension, TAG ECUs and datalogging. Have you seen an F1 steering wheel? I will bet the amount in your entire bank account that you cannot even figure out how to START an F1 car. Well the reverse is also true. For a team that has has only open wheel experience, what do they know about a turbo system, big *** heavy cars on skinny *** tires (relative to open wheel cars), a center of gravity nearly 12" higher, custom everything (fuel systems, suspension, oil systems, etc.), engine in the front, a transfer case, 3 differentials, 4 axles, and an H-pattern transmission? Sure they can figure it out, but there is a very intense learning curve. I have been able to share my production car experience with SSE, but a 100% pure custom race car always has teething problems. I am proud of the fact that SSE has been able to get the car to where it is today in 10 months time with a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and of course, money. Haterpoint #5 would only be brought up by rank amateurs who have never truly built a car from the ground up. And if you have, it probably sucked ***.
All stolen from MOTOIQ
Scorke
HATERPOINT #1:The HKS CT230R came over from Japan barely prepped and had no practice or setup time at Buttonwillow. Taniguchi has very little experience at Buttonwillow. Blah, blah, blah.
COUNTERPOINT #1: Do you really think for a single moment that a team is going to bring a car all the way over from another country and not prepare the car at all? The Japanese are meticulous people and they WILL prepare. HKS rented Buttonwillow for a couple days before Superlap to test and tune. On top of that, Taniguchi is a fast driver (and fast drinker of whiskey and shochu to boot). Do you think HKS got to where they are today by NOT preparing for situations like Superlap? While it is true that HKS did not go ***** out in changing the car's setup for the US Superlap, it is very untrue that the "car was still setup for Tsukuba so they just rolled it out of the trailer and busted a 1:43.527, packed their bags and went home". *********: even in Japan the CT230R traveled around Japan to set records at tracks across the country. It did not ONLY run at Tsukuba. In my days at Apexi, whenever we brought over a car from Japan like the BCNR33 V-Max drag car or the Drag Integra, we started planning 6-7 months before. I had to generate a schedule, make arrangements, accomodations, transportation, track rental for testing, etc. while the car and race team were here in the US. The cars would come in a 40' container with the car occupying 15 feet and the rest of the container would be stacked to the roof with spare parts. I would have to order slicks (Goodyears are made in the USA), race fuel (Sunoco is also made in the USA), lubricants, supplies, etc. months ahead because my Japanese bosses were so **** about being properly prepared. Why did they need to be so prepared? Because they came to beat records. Not to see what would happen if they tried running their car on an American track. The Apexi V-Max was the fastest full body drag GT-R in the world for 3 years afterwards. Sounds just like the HKS CT230R doesn't it? See the next point.
HATERPOINT #2: Haha, it's about time that Sierra Sierra beat the record with that giant budget they have! HKS has only had the record for 3 years!
COUNTERPOINT #2: It hasn't been 3 years fool, do the math (Nov 2007 to March 2010). The HKS CT230R started life as an EVO 8 and was built in 2006 if I remember correctly. But let's not forget about the original HKS TRB-02 Carbon EVO that was built in early 2002. Taniguchi put the TRB-02 into a wall and totalled it due to a brake malfunction. HKS then took what they learned from the TRB-02 and built the new and improved CT230R. HKS and Taniguchi set the US time attack record in 2007. This means that HKS had been developing a time attack EVO for 5 years up to when the record was set in 2007. How long has Sierra Sierra been running their EVO 8? The first event they competed in was May 2009. We smoked the record in March 2010. It has been 10 months. Yeah, you bet your *** we're going to go faster. On top of this, the Japanese have been "time attacking" for 15 years. We Americans barely started in 2005. And as for the budget what makes you think that a publicly owned company with $90M in sales per year isn't going to spend a small percentage of that on a race car? The rumors of HKS having spent over $2.1M on the time attack EVOs are well true and probably a fraction of what they spent in total. If you were to count the overtime the race team probably spent on the car you can double that figure. It's a good thing for HKS they don't pay overtime in Japan. Fortunately for Sierra Sierra, their trailers, tools, and much of their equipment carried over from their Formula Atlantic team. Just like I'm sure HKS Racing's trailers, tools, and much of their equipment was carried over from one of their many past race cars (old 7M drag Supra, 2J drag Supra, Benz JGTC car, N1 GT-Rs, drag GT-Rs, multitude of N1/Super Taikyu race cars, etc.). In summary, I assure you that HKS has spent FAR MORE money in their EVO time attack program than Sierra Sierra has. Do the simple math: HKS has built at least two super high end time attack EVOs (that we know of). Sierra Sierra is still the smaller company when comparing to HKS.
HATERPOINT #3: The HKS EVO was on A-048s and the Sierra Sierra EVO beat the records on slicks. That's not even close to fair.
COUNTERPOINT #3: Boo ****ing hoo. HKS' A-048s were hardly off the shelf. The GG compound A-048s that Advan produced for HKS were NOT available to the public. They are not not DOT legal (or Japan's equivalent of DOT legal) either. The SSE EVO beat the record on a DOT legal tire. Sure, it only has two grooves down the middle, but it is legal for use on a public road which means it has a street tire casing with steel and/or Kevlar belts, and is hard and thick enough to resist objects found on public roads that can cause punctures. Anybody can go to a Hankook dealer like City Tire or Dynamic Autosports in Southern California and buy a set of C91 tires right over the counter with no questions asked. Try asking Yokohama for a set of GG compound A-048's and they will laugh in your face if the guy you are talking to even knows what the hell a GG Compound is.
HATERPOINT #4: The HKS EVO only makes 450hp. If the SSE EVO is making 500-600hp why is it that it can barely beat the HKS EVO's time?
COUNTERPOINT #4: The reason why is weight. The HKS EVO weighs a measly 1080kg or 2380lb. It really does help if you have a couple hundred grand for molds and plugs so that you can have some pre-preg dry carbon fenders, doors, hood, trunk, etc. fabricated with an autoclave. The HKS EVO had a more thorough diet plan and it is not built to any specific safety specification (I think). You can see the tubes are very small in diameter and are probably fairly thin walled also. The Sierra Sierra EVO weighs 1260kg or 2777lb and is built to FIA spec. If it were homologated, it could probably enter a FIA GT2 race based on safety standards alone. Sure the SSE EVO is overbuilt, but that's only because Richard, the team manager, has seen far too many crashed race cars to be wiling to risk anybody's life for only a quick lap time. Also, the doors, fenders, and bumpers on Christine are wet lay up carbon pieces. They certainly are not as light as the HKS pieces.
HATERPOINT #5: With the amount of resources that Sierra Sierra has, I'd be surprised if they couldn't hit 1:43 by now...
COUNTERPOINT #5: This haterpoint sort of overlaps with #2, but it really does need to be broken down a bit further. The reality is that knowlege is one thing and money is another. Just because a team can run an open wheel formula car, it does not mean that this same team can build a unibody race car and have overnight sucess. Case in point: you have built the fastest S2000, STi, EVO, etc. in the country. Then by some miracle Frank Williams says, "Mate, I'll give you an F1 car and $5M. You need to qualify in a F1 race by the end of the year." Do you think your Honda building *** has even the remotest ****ing clue how to build, maintain, tune, and run an F1 car?!?!? Before you answer that question think about how much you know about rotary dampers, push rod suspension, TAG ECUs and datalogging. Have you seen an F1 steering wheel? I will bet the amount in your entire bank account that you cannot even figure out how to START an F1 car. Well the reverse is also true. For a team that has has only open wheel experience, what do they know about a turbo system, big *** heavy cars on skinny *** tires (relative to open wheel cars), a center of gravity nearly 12" higher, custom everything (fuel systems, suspension, oil systems, etc.), engine in the front, a transfer case, 3 differentials, 4 axles, and an H-pattern transmission? Sure they can figure it out, but there is a very intense learning curve. I have been able to share my production car experience with SSE, but a 100% pure custom race car always has teething problems. I am proud of the fact that SSE has been able to get the car to where it is today in 10 months time with a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and of course, money. Haterpoint #5 would only be brought up by rank amateurs who have never truly built a car from the ground up. And if you have, it probably sucked ***.
All stolen from MOTOIQ
Scorke
Apr 2, 2010, 11:50 AM
#235
All the cool techy guys from Sport Compact Car started their own weblog, I find it very refreshing.
Scorke
Apr 2, 2010, 01:40 PM
#236
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I'm a fan of TS setups like previously stated, but Ted B's motor, and for that matter entire setup is different than mine....a much better/more effiecient setup
which my hat goes off to
Apr 2, 2010, 02:12 PM
#237
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Proof...? The only thing that proves is that a 35R in a no compromise, fully purpose built car, on race fuel, with 40psi can achieve an nicely inflated 750whp - 'Dynojet uncorrected in 20 degree weather'
Everyone has their own interpretation of what 'very low boost' is, so please explain to me what you consider a 'very low boost' 35R @ 650whp is...
The only thing that proves is that a 35R in a no compromise, fully purpose built car, on race fuel, with 40psi can achieve an nicely inflated 750whp - 'Dynojet uncorrected in 20 degree weather' Everyone has their own interpretation of what 'very low boost' is, so please explain to me what you consider a 'very low boost' 35R @ 650whp is...
i have 18psi-28-psi-32psi maps for my car. thats not that much boost, is it?
its up in the dyno forums now Stance Suspension TA car
Last edited by tc17; Apr 2, 2010 at 02:15 PM.