Shearer

iTrader: (6)

What solid data is out there for public review?

And keep in mind I have been building Twin Scroll manifolds since January of 2005. I realized the benefits long before most others and have also learned where Twin Scroll works and doesn't work.

I agree that housing selection is very limited for the T3 stuff and that is a drawback. The gains in spool up and transient response while maintaining a good or comparable power curve to an open inlet turbine is going to be very difficult with the housings currently available.

Based on what I have seen with these small turbos and headers of equal diameter primaries I believe the gains will be negligible, even with a vast array properly sized housings. The effectiveness of the Twin Scrolls is a matter of proportions. The larger your turbo gets in comparison to your motor the greater effect it is going to have.

I'm a believer in Twin Scroll with the larger turbos(GT40-42-45) and these motors. We saw gains back in 2005 with the GT42 and the 1.01 divided housing compared to an open inlet housing(PTE I believe). The 1.01 housing spooled up several hundred RPM faster, made the turbo a lot more responsive, but lost high RPM power. Back then getting that "monster" turbo to spool up faster was a lot more important than the loss of top end power. Not to mention the larger tubos have a lot better housing selection as well.

One thing that we never took into consideration back then was that the two exhaust housings came from different manufacturers and almost certainly had different machining tolerances. Unless the housing to wheel clearances were identical between the two, comparing those two housings is probably not ideal as housing to wheel clearance plays a vital role in turbine performance.

Shearer

iTrader: (6)

Food for thought...

What happens when you reduce header primary diameter by .250"?

JC evo1

i have no idea, u tell me? Wouldnt you want to match the primary to the port size?

jkimes

Feel like enlightening us what this mystery turbo is? Also, were you running the gt4088r with a single scroll manifold or something? All gt40 turbos are TS by default but you stated when you switched to the "TS setup" after the 40r you gained mph on pump?

robertrinaustin

iTrader: (5)

Search for the DTM Twin Scroll T4 thread. They give the turbo details in the thread. IIRC, it's a big turbo 70+ lbs/ min and the power it made down low was similar to a 35.

robertrinaustin

iTrader: (5)

Should improve spool and might hurt top end. There's some math to do around the flow dynamics to determine the power cost, if any, of the tighter diameter. I can't help with the math because it's been 20 years since I took my basic engineering courses and I don't remember much. I'm curious why you would pose the question, though I have an idea.

Geoff Raicer

iTrader: (7)

Are you asking about currently available TS T3 housings? There is only one, .78 and that is good for a 30R up to 24/25psi. Beyond that, you need to be on a T4 TS. Running the T3 TS on anything bigger than 30R is pointless IMHO

diameter is smaller, but mass flow rate is up. its a 7 blade borg warner wheel, its going to move more air than a 6 blade garrett... i define "bigger" = moves more air, not diameter. diameter has a small effect on turbine efficiency compared to mass flow rate

see you this week! hope you got some time set aside, im going to keep you busy with this T4 1.06 gt35R...



there is a LOT out there... just becuase you havent taken the time to dig it up doesnt mean its not

we've been doing it since 2003, and are still learning more every day. In fact we build on average 4-5 manifolds per day, 3 of them are twinscroll... think about that, there are a LOT of people out there running twinscroll Full-Race setups, and we keep in touch with many of them. Every time we build/test a setup we learn more and more.... so for you to say that you understand 100% whats going on, thats very impressive. FWIW a well respected mutual friend of ours (i believe your first twinscroll manifold was for him) told me some stuff about your early twinscroll headers, and i wont go into detail but i respectfully disagree with some of your findings/conclusions


unfortunately i dont think youre going to get good data or find much truth with that setup. you cant just slap together a twinscroll setup and expect it to work well...

555R

iTrader: (5)

I drove the full race 35R...its really that good...I also overlaid my ix turbo dyno over the ts 35r dyno and its the same to 250 HPS @ 4400 rpms then the 35 takes over...and I mean its exactly like the stock ix to 4400. now if geoff would get back to me dammit, hehe, I would have one now

Ted B

iTrader: (6)

The biggest skeptics/detractors of TS tend to be those who have the least experience with it.

I find it interesting that many seem to lost sight of the fact that every impressive FP Green result posted here is achieved with a TS hotside. 500whp with a 49 lb/hr compressor and E85 looks pretty darn good to me. That would be like getting 660whp from a 35R.

The key to getting the most out of TS with any application lies in turbine housing selection with respect to intended use of the car, fuel quality, and how much power can realistically be supported by the setup. TS T3 housings large enough to get the most absolute peak power out of a large turbo are as rare as the proverbial hen's teeth. Of course, this is omitting the fact that a 30R with a .78 A/R TS T3 is capable of delivering outstanding power under the curve.

Sizing a TS turbine housing for best results demands that one be more informed than does a regular open setup. TS works. How well it works for you depends upon your success in configuring it for your particular application.

YellowEvilEvo

iTrader: (4)

You are correct, I run a hybrid TS turbo now. the 4088 is a TS, but the ramhorn manifold I was running wasn't. DTM didn't give me the full specs on the turbo, but this is what DTM states about my turbo "Turbo isn't exactly a 37r. It's another one of our custom hybrids. Needless to say it can flow a bit more than a 37r". As for the mph, I think it's due to the tunning. the car made 475 on pump with the 40r @ 23 lbs on a dyno jet and 460 @ 25lbs on a mustang dyno. i can attest to the fact that the car pulls alot harder with the TS setup and spool is a lot sooner.

konstantinosIX

Which companies have TS HTA35R turbo kits for Evo?
What housings do they use?
I think ETS and Full Race only... but Full Race use turbonetics turbocharger.... right???
So ETS is the only one with TS and FP 35R with the HTA option???

JC evo1

any housing including T4.

weap0n

iTrader: (4)

After reading some of the post's on this thread my concerns about using the T3 and .78AR housing preventing top end power are true.

So I contacted Tom from ETS and we have decided for my kit to go with the T4 1.06 AR housing. Its going to take awhile long for me to get the kit, but hopefully it will be a better in the long run.

I felt that the .78 housing on the T3 might be restrictive from the start. Luckily I started this thread and got some great feed back from the guys at Full Race and Shearer.

There willingness to post there thoughts and experience to help others (even though they are gaining nothing from it) is testament to there giving and unselfish nature.

Thanks. Keep posting your thoughts.

DTM

iTrader: (4)

There are ALOT of T3 turbine housings available. Or should I say hard to get but still somewhat available. Non of which have been mentioned in this thread.

With that said, we decided to use only two styles of turbocharger in our kits. Both much larger than what the original poster is thinking of using. We have found that the larger frame cartridges seem to adapt quite well to our smaller displacement and air processing engines. Take it for what its worth, but IMHO anything smaller than a 35R and a TS setup is really not optimal for the majority of the applications on this board.

Shearer

iTrader: (6)

Most if not all of the TS manifolds that I have seen are using the smaller, 1-1/4" pipe, runners. Which in and of itself will yield significant gains in spool up and make the turbo alot happier at part throttle/low rpm situations.

I should have phrased that differently. Where is the data from the manufactures that support the Twin Scroll designs, such as yourself, that show gains in a true test? I don't really care about dyno charts from a 240 using different engines/turbos or quoted excerpts from Borg Warner. A true test on any car of similar displacement, same turbos, same primary size, yada yada. Hell, use the same divided manifold and swap out the turbine housings. Datalogging backpressure, boost, throttle, rpm, a/f, timing, turbine shaft speed, etc... would be some excellent information to act as a selling point towards your product. I think you said you have a TS set-up on your daily driver, that would be a good start.

I have heard of some good reviews of the response of your 35r TS set-ups. Some of those gains comes directly from the fact that you are using ~.240" smaller diameter primaries from everyone else. But I have not heard of any of these set-ups being turned up yet to see where they max out. So far I have not seen that capability on both ends of the spectrum with what we have done up here. When they can prove themselves to hang with the rest of the pack in peak power output than I will bow down and kiss your feet or something.

I can understand if you don't want to post info from from your testing as I am the same way. But I'm hardly, more like never, on here or anywhere else pushing my products or making claims to sell them. I'm a modest, non marketing/hype driven company unlike most others here. The results we come up with are reflected in our product and I prefer to let my products speak and sell themselves.

I don't know when you got into this Twin Scroll stuff, but I do remember the comments you used to make back in '04 or '05 and they weren't in favor of the design and you have come a complete 180 since. I don't think I have stated that I know 100% what is going. You know as well as I that this junk is a constant evolution of new improved parts and what didn't work back then doesn't mean it won't now days. I have come to my own conclusions and my opinion is that the Twin Scroll design on the smaller frame turbos is a waste at this point in time.

I can't even imagine what you have heard and this mutual friend of ours would have to be Ivey or Javier. And believe me I have never and never would discuss in complete detail my findings with someone outside of my little posse of friends.

And I'm glad we can agree to disagree without ripping each others heads off.