MitsuBeastly

i believe it would be really hard to calculate the exact contribution due to the fact that it adds energy, and also optimizes the current fuel...

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

The mixure will burn, not explode. Exploding mixtures is what knock/detonation is.

The low loads at idle and cruise aren't a likely area for detonation to occur.

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

It's really not that hard to calculate. I did have about a page of math, but the difficulty comes in the variables at hand.

'Optimizing' the current fuel is just a catch phrase.

MitsuBeastly

ok, so what your saying is you cant produce enough hydrogen to benefit performance??? i mean, you can always produce more... i'm just scared of blowing a perfectly good motor, and yes, i know it "burns"... also, are we sure that the math works correctly for that?? where did you find it... i've read a post where a guy has a stock d16 civic that remapped his ecu and is getting 112mpg!!! so there is defenitely something to it, and generally, anything that increases your economy, increases your power....

finally, you could varry the power going to the generator (with llike a window switch and a relay) so you could run higher voltage to it when under heavy throttle applications...

i just wanna get every angle covered before i drop money on this setup... I really wanna try and do something new...

MitsuBeastly

also, i want to clarify, i am not only going for just fuel efficiency, but PERFORMANCE also, regardless of how minimal the gains are... like 10hp would make me happy... lol..

so, i am not worried about the daily driving aspects, i know they are fine, and without boost, on a low compression motor, it will be FINE, no problem...

here it is again... how is it gonna respond at 3200 or 6000 rpm's at 20psi on 93 octane fuel??? is it gonna detonate and blow my motor that i cant afford to replace at the moment???

this is WHERE it matters...

i'm sure i'll have to go with two kits and wire one in on a window switch, no big deal, i know a lil about nitrous, so just set it up like that, but experimenting on my motor without my bases covered IS a BIG DEAL to me... i'm ready to do it, just wanna make sure its safe

MitsuBeastly

Also, yes, it is a catch phrase, but the main REASON that hydrogen injection works isnt the addition of energy or more fuel, it's the reaction you get when you burn gasoline and hydrogen together, the burn of the gasoline is accelerated, causing the SAME amount of energy from the gas to still be produced, but at an ACCELERATED rate, so therefore you get a higher cylinder pressure and more energy produce closer to TDC, which in turn, makes horsepower... also, alot of the reason the egt's are lower is due to the fact most of the fuel is burned before it exits the valves, which burning fuel in the exhaust means higher egt's...

now i may be wrong about some of this, so i will take corrections if you have something i can read to prove it i am not stubborn, just wanna make this work and have the right info.

p.s. Not trying to argue, just help...

merkzu

iTrader: (4)

Damn man, you need to stop believing everything you hear on the internet

wingless

iTrader: (15)

Yah sodium... Nothing safer than hydrogen saturated sodium

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

You have to understand that these devices that we are talking about make very little H2. The reason is helps fuel economy is because during a low load cruising situation, the ratio of H2 to gasoline is the biggest. At WOT, the amount of H2 is neglible, at best.

For example, at low RPM cruise you may have .3g/rev or airflow, roughly 30 load as measured by our ECU. At cruise, the ECU is using a stoich burn of 14.7:1 for gasoline. So, to match that .3g/rev at 14.7:1, you need .0204 g/rev of gasoline. If you are cruising at 2500 RPM, that is 51g/min of gasoline that is needed.

Under boost your g/rev of airflow dramatically increases. A stock turbo can reach roughly 3g/rev or airflow, or 300 load. If you are running 3g/rev of airflow, 11:1 AFR, at 5000 RPM, now you need 1364 g/min of gasoline.

If you want, I can show you the math on the amount of H2 that is coming in, but do you see my point here:

At cruise, you are delivering around 51g/min of fuel. At high boost, you are delivering around 1364g/min of gasoline,. The amount of H2 that you are making with these devices is negligible as compared to the amount of fuel that you are using at higher airflow levels.

I can see where they would help fuel economy, since H2 has 3 times the energy of gasoline when burned, but only a small fraction of your fuel is H2, and that is only at low airflow situations. I think the Hydro 4000 which was linked to above made 2-3 L/min of H2+O2. That is very little compared to the amount of gasoline.


Eric

evohead1

iTrader: (1)

how much hydrogen is needs to be produced in order to be "efficient?" I saw a unit that uses baking soda, vinegar, and 11 amps to create 6.5 liters of hho per minute. I think most hho kits that claim 50% efficency only produce like 2 liters per minute on 10 amps. I also heard a while back that things like this were scams, but it seems worth a shot for 4 bucks a gallon.

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

Efficient at what? 6.5 liters of hydrogen and oxygen per minute is still too small to make a difference for performance of high airflow. It may very well help with fuel economy though. It all depends on what RPM you cruise at, how much gasoline you would normally be using and how much hydrogen you can produce to replace the gasoline.

The good thing about hydrogen is that it has 3 times the energy output per unit mass than gasoline has. Hydrogen produces 61,100 BTUs per pound versus 20,900 BTUs per pound of gasoline.

The problem is that you are producing very little hydrogen, but every bit of hydrogen that you do produce would allow you to use 3 times less fuel to produce the same horsepower to keep the car moving down the road at cruise. So, for example, if you could get 3% of your total fuel during cruise to be hydrogen, then you can take away 9% of the gasoline energy and create the same amount of energy. So, you would save 9% on your gas mileage.

I'll go ahead and do some quick math for you guys in my next post to show you actually how much % fuel the hydrogen is contributing. It will take a lot of writing and math, but this will explain what I am referring to.


Eric

mdsevo06

iTrader: (41)

Fuel Cells are the Achilles Heel of Hydrogen powered vehicles PERIOD. The race is on, for the solution in storing hydrogen and extracting hydrogen. Chemicals are one of the best solution, mainly Lithium ion, Nickel Metal Hydrid...etc. Time will tell and the first one there, makes the discovery of the century.

Evo8Emperor

iTrader: (12)

Like i stated before though the storage of hydrogen has already been takin care of. Just because you cant buy it right now doesnt mean it isnt out there.

When I watched the documentary on alternative fuels, Hydrogen being the main focus there was a scientist who created a metal (not sure on what it is called they didnt disclose any info on it) that could store hydrogen using a electrical charge and to distract it, it goes through the same process. But the thing with it is that there is no way for the hydrogen to "leak out" in anyway or for that matter be combustible while its stored.

mdsevo06

iTrader: (41)

It's a possibility, not a solution. Saw that same documentary.
I'm not a scientist, I'm a Mechanical Engineer designing Centrifuge that are one of a kind, to support our scientists.
Don't believe everything you see on the Discovery channel, take it with a grain of salt.

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

OK, here's some math to show how much the hydrogen will be contributing to the total energy in the combustion chamber. You can check my math...I've been known to make mistakes before.

Let's assume that you built a system that produced 5 L/min of gas (the commerical products out now claim to make 2-3L only, but since someone above mentioned 6.5 L/min, I will use a number in between). Note that this is both hydrogen and oxygen in a perfectly stoich mixture, known as Brown's gas. Only two-thirds of this gas is going to be hydrogen: 2H20-->2H2+o2 (2 molecules of water are broken down into 2 molecules of H2 and 1 molecule of O2).

Basic chemistry tells us that 1 mol of gas occupies 22.4L at STP. So, we have 5/22.4=.223 moles of gas. 2/3 of this is hydrogen or .14881 moles. Multiply by the molecular weight of hydrgen (2 g/mol) to get .298 g/min of hydrogen.

OK, now we now how much mass flow of hydrogen we have. Now, we need to know how much mass flow of gasoline we have during a normal cruising situation. From my experience over the years with logging and tuning my DSM and now my Evo, a normal, light cruise at 2500 RPM will consume approximately .3 g/rev of air. Simply multiply this by our 2500RPM, to get the mass airflow/min or 750g/min.

OK, now we can calculate the mass flow of gasoline in this situation. We all know that cruise is performed at a stoich 14.7:1 AFR. So, all you have to do is divide our 750g/min of airflow by 14.7 to get 51 g/min of gasoline.

So, now we have both mass flow of hydrogen and gasoline during this cruise situation as follows:
.298 g/min of hydrogen
51 g/min of gasoline

As mentioned previously, the BTU ouput for hydrogen is three times that of gasoline. So, this .298 g/min of hydrogen can take the place of .298*3, or .894 g/min of gasoline. So, you can save .894/51 = 1.75% of your gasoline to produce the same energy.

There may be other factors involved as well, such as flame front speed, which will have the same effect of changing ignition timing to achieve greater power. Overall, though I see very little change due to the hydrogen. It's just too small of a quantity. The other factors not mentioned here probably have bigger effects than the energy of the hydrogen itself, but in any event, the effects will be diminished as airflow and the amount of gasoline injected increases.