New FP White turbo
Jul 6, 2008, 10:39 AM
#407
Oh, BTW, there is only 1 company who has put any faith in the EVO bolt-on market to spend R&D money on reverse rotation turbine wheels.
Anybody can whittle out or copy an existing compressor wheel in a short period of time.
Take a look around.
It takes YEARS and a sh1tp0tfull of money to make qualified molds and make turbine wheels.
The best is yet to come.
Anybody can whittle out or copy an existing compressor wheel in a short period of time.
Take a look around.
It takes YEARS and a sh1tp0tfull of money to make qualified molds and make turbine wheels.
The best is yet to come.
For those who are not familiar with manufacturing methodology, here's a very short primer of some of the complexities that are involved in making a new turbocharger available to the public.
Assuming that you are modifying a stock turbo, and not making serious changes to the center bearing/bushing section, you can make changes in the compressor wheel (and cover, if necessary), and/or the turbine wheel (and hot side).
The compressor wheel can be obtained by using another stock OEM wheel, or it can be adapted from some other compressor wheel already in production by Mitsubishi, Garrett, or some other large turbo manufacturer, or it can be custom (designed and) produced by cutting it from aluminium with a very high end and expensive CNC milling machine.
Compressor wheels can be readily available, if you want to spend the time and money to have them CNC machined from aluminium. Of course, you'd need to design them first, and have the engineering background to know what would work, or hire someone who has that expertise to do it for you. Compressor wheels are also not difficult to copy from another existing design, if one is willing to spend the money to do so. (Legal? That's another story...) It is a well known fact that with current digitizing technology, coupled with access to any machine shop with a 5 or 6 axis CNC vertical machining center, the capability exists to make an exact copy of any part you can get an exemplar original to scan, including turbocharger compressor wheels.
On the turbine end, though, it's a little more expensive and difficult to make a duplicate of an existing wheel, or to create a new design from scratch. The material on the "hot" side is much more expensive, because of the demands that it stand up to high temps, and it's also harder to machine. The turbine wheel is also welded to or produced integral with the shaft, which makes the process more complicated than simply cutting a compressor wheel (with no shaft needed) with a CNC. The turbine wheel is usually produced by making a casting, which means that a high tolerance mold be fabricated ("tooling") which costs a large $ investment and takes time and a facility that has the capability and experience to do the job. The company who wants to produce a new design also has to have the background and skill to create the design and test it, hopefully before the high cost of the tooling is incurred...
If, after you make the compressor wheel or the turbine wheel, and it does not perform as you'd hoped, you have some very rare and costly Christmas tree ornaments, and if you cast them, some expensive molds for making them that have no other value...
FP's Green has a proprietary, unique, designed by FP compressor wheel AND a larger, non-stock 11 bladed turbine wheel. The FP White Rabbit had the same special wheel as the Green, but without the larger upgraded turbine wheel. FP's WhiteHTA has a proprietary, unique, designed by FP HTA compressor wheel CNC'd from billet aluminium, coupled to the stock turbine wheel. All probably cost beaucoup bucks to design and manufacture.
Compressor covers and turbine hot sides are also cast parts. They would be too expensive and complex to machine from billet for our applications. Because they are cast, they require "tooling" -- molds to pour the liquid metal into to form them. The molds are not cheap, and one is required for each different configuration. The rough products are then machined with facings and holes, etc. Factory OEM parts can also be machined (somewhat) as long as there is adequate extra metal in the casting to permit the removal of metal without compromising the integrity of the casting in use. The creation of a different hot side or compressor cover takes time and $, which has to be invested in hopes that the company will sell enough of them to recoup the cost of the mold... That's why there are not lots of options for hot sides or compressor covers, particularly in small niche markets where it is unlikely that thousands will be sold...
So, you can see why a new version of a "stock configuration turbocharger" takes time and a large investment in technology and money. That's why there are not dozens of companies providing such products to the Evo community. Like the old saying goes "if it were easy, everyone would be doing it...".
When you read that a company is waiting for parts to produce a new turbo configuration, and you know which parts are not available, and the process that is required to make the parts that are missing, you can draw some conclusions about how long you might be waiting before the finished product shows up on your doorstep...
Yours for a more informed enthusiast audience
Jul 6, 2008, 11:13 AM
#409
Tom-
I just got back from the dirt track (Ardmore OK), cooked BBQ for 150 people.
Only 50 *****ed. I suck. Ask Ronny Gould. It's his fault. Friggin' Okies. Between him and his brother they've only won like 1200 features.
We gave everyone here nothing but facts. No hype, we posted real numbers. Look at the early pages.
When was the last time you ever saw a vendor post a dyno graph, and a log of that run with TIMING and THE ACTUAL BOOST CURVE and conditions?
I'd say never.
The difference between this and the 1580 occurs at higher PR's.
There is NOTHING you can do to make a TD05H work better at 7K plus.
Its a 'small' turbine wheel, performance is going to suffer at high RPM. Look at the exhaust pressure. Eventually it goes sky high. It doesn't matter if Tom or Fred or FP or Joe Average is using it, it has certain characteristics, it has a performance window.
I tried to talk Tom out of spending any time on this unit, other than use it as a 'filter'. He has better things to do with his time.
Dumb Okie wouldn't listen.
I think maybe that's why he goes fast.
DO NOT BUY a 'White' if your primary focus is drag racing. You'll lose too much top end.
This unit is strictly for those who NEED response and low/mid.
I just got back from the dirt track (Ardmore OK), cooked BBQ for 150 people.
Only 50 *****ed. I suck. Ask Ronny Gould. It's his fault. Friggin' Okies. Between him and his brother they've only won like 1200 features.
We gave everyone here nothing but facts. No hype, we posted real numbers. Look at the early pages.
When was the last time you ever saw a vendor post a dyno graph, and a log of that run with TIMING and THE ACTUAL BOOST CURVE and conditions?
I'd say never.
The difference between this and the 1580 occurs at higher PR's.
There is NOTHING you can do to make a TD05H work better at 7K plus.
Its a 'small' turbine wheel, performance is going to suffer at high RPM. Look at the exhaust pressure. Eventually it goes sky high. It doesn't matter if Tom or Fred or FP or Joe Average is using it, it has certain characteristics, it has a performance window.
I tried to talk Tom out of spending any time on this unit, other than use it as a 'filter'. He has better things to do with his time.
Dumb Okie wouldn't listen.
I think maybe that's why he goes fast.
DO NOT BUY a 'White' if your primary focus is drag racing. You'll lose too much top end.
This unit is strictly for those who NEED response and low/mid.
You all are sorta sounding like a good ol' boys club. Just let the turbo go out to the masses and they will finger it out. If it rocks, it rocks, if it's a white rabbit, err, if it sucks, it sucks.
Last edited by razorlab; Jul 6, 2008 at 11:18 AM.
Jul 6, 2008, 01:16 PM
#411
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If the sale goes through for the ix turbo I'm trying to buy, it'll be shipped off for a white upgrade rather shortly or if I just have a good paycheck next week I will just order a new one!
or if I just have a good paycheck next week I will just order a new one!
Jul 6, 2008, 01:26 PM
#414
ADDED: I should say at this point, I have no monetary nor business interest in these manifolds. Doing the Street Version V0 was my idea to IndyEvo, but I have no 'credit' or sales interest. It's just going to be a great manifold to go along with the White or Green turbos on the street, so I say it.
Last edited by 9sec9; Jul 6, 2008 at 01:29 PM.
Jul 6, 2008, 01:28 PM
#415
Oh, BTW, there is only 1 company who has put any faith in the EVO bolt-on market to spend R&D money on reverse rotation turbine wheels.
Anybody can whittle out or copy an existing compressor wheel in a short period of time.
Take a look around.
It takes YEARS and a sh1tp0tfull of money to make qualified molds and make turbine wheels.
The best is yet to come.
Anybody can whittle out or copy an existing compressor wheel in a short period of time.
Take a look around.
It takes YEARS and a sh1tp0tfull of money to make qualified molds and make turbine wheels.
The best is yet to come.
Oh well, guess I'll just run the IX for now and wait to see what comes out in the future. As fun as fast spooling high torque is, I think I still like the top end pull of a 70+ lb/min turbo better.
When is there going to be a thread about the 60lb/min mentioned by Robert???
Jul 6, 2008, 01:33 PM
#416
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importjake00, Mike at AWD Motorsports will have 4 late in the week. Yes it's all 9sec9's fault were doing this 
all his ideas = no sleep 
. It was a great idea, I had overlooked the street market in search of all out power. He brought me back to reality so a big thanks goes to him 
. Indy
all his ideas = no sleep . It was a great idea, I had overlooked the street market in search of all out power. He brought me back to reality so a big thanks goes to him . Indy
Last edited by Indy Evo; Jul 6, 2008 at 01:36 PM.
Jul 6, 2008, 01:43 PM
#417
The Street Version idea was easy after you and David had the Race Version already going. There's lots of people with lots of ideas, but it takes someone who knows HOW to get the job done. Entrance, Stage left....IndyEvo. Jim, in the worst of times, you've kept up the work and drive. I honestly don't know how you've done it man. When I leave here, I'm stopping back by Indianapolis to show you your works of art, all put together. Thanks is such a small word for what you've done.
Jul 6, 2008, 01:58 PM
#418
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Show me hell!, let's run that thing at ORP on Tuesday or Thursday night it's only 3 blocks east of my house 
no one knows that car around here 
. I know a certain NHRA Top Fuel driver who would love to run it, and he weighs less than Tony!...just kidding Tony... well not about the driver wanting to run your car... and he is within a few pounds. Thanks Tom, but I'm just another cog at Cogswell Cogs. Indy
no one knows that car around here . I know a certain NHRA Top Fuel driver who would love to run it, and he weighs less than Tony!...just kidding Tony... well not about the driver wanting to run your car... and he is within a few pounds. Thanks Tom, but I'm just another cog at Cogswell Cogs. Indy
Last edited by Indy Evo; Jul 6, 2008 at 02:38 PM.
