Evo 8 Aem Intake Installed
Sep 1, 2003, 08:59 PM
#33
Evolving Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I installed mine the same day that Vtec1 did (looks like from the date of the post) I installed mine MAF right side up, and didn't have any problems with fitment with the heat sheild. I'm no mechanic by any stretch of the imagination, and actually this is the first intake installation I've ever done. I do need to go back and try to seat it a little better between the MAF and the suction pipe. It is VERY tight in there to work, and it took me a long time to get the crank case breather hose on the pipe. I could'nt get it more than about 4mm onto the pipe. Anyway, the shot of the filter where it looks as if it's "burnt" is where the filter is rubbing against the underside of the hood. Mine looks worse! Which is why I'm going back to try to push it in a little further. I think that bending the bracket slightly will help as well, but not too much because as you guys can see the intake pipe naturally angles upward. My experience do far: the AEM intake increases throttle response dramatically. And it has the typical open cone sounds like insanely loud turbo spool, and the sock blow off can be heard when the throttle plate closes rapidly. 4th gear WOT pulls on the freeway= a nice throaty sound. I have no other engine mods beside this intake and ground wires. I'm going to take it into RMR this week to see if their CF hood scoop will work with this intake. I'm kinda skeptic though because the upward angle is so extreme, and the filter is mammoth in size compared to the others.
Sep 2, 2003, 05:57 AM
#34
Evolving Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: San Diego
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MAF Turbulence
Arent you guys worried about air flow and having the correct kind of turbulence around the MAF sensor?
In WRX land it's a big no no to fool with the intake system it makes the MAF readings erratic, not to mention leaning things out in an incorrect way.
I'm curious if the A/F has changed at all across the board, and the only real performance improvements you are feeling are from a mis reading MAF sensor.
What about the other times you have to drive the car when not at WOT? How's very light part throttle (like feathering in a corner), or long term closed loop driving?
It's hilarious when people say they've done a mod, but then say they've done so many other things along with it (at the same time)...how do you really feel what you've done? Not to mention the butt dyno is easily fooled.
I'd rather keep my cold air from the OEM until more times passes with these intakes.
In WRX land it's a big no no to fool with the intake system it makes the MAF readings erratic, not to mention leaning things out in an incorrect way.
I'm curious if the A/F has changed at all across the board, and the only real performance improvements you are feeling are from a mis reading MAF sensor.
What about the other times you have to drive the car when not at WOT? How's very light part throttle (like feathering in a corner), or long term closed loop driving?
It's hilarious when people say they've done a mod, but then say they've done so many other things along with it (at the same time)...how do you really feel what you've done? Not to mention the butt dyno is easily fooled.
I'd rather keep my cold air from the OEM until more times passes with these intakes.
Sep 2, 2003, 02:30 PM
#36
Re: MAF Turbulence
Originally posted by DrMerl
Arent you guys worried about air flow and having the correct kind of turbulence around the MAF sensor?
In WRX land it's a big no no to fool with the intake system it makes the MAF readings erratic, not to mention leaning things out in an incorrect way.
I'm curious if the A/F has changed at all across the board, and the only real performance improvements you are feeling are from a mis reading MAF sensor.
What about the other times you have to drive the car when not at WOT? How's very light part throttle (like feathering in a corner), or long term closed loop driving?
It's hilarious when people say they've done a mod, but then say they've done so many other things along with it (at the same time)...how do you really feel what you've done? Not to mention the butt dyno is easily fooled.
I'd rather keep my cold air from the OEM until more times passes with these intakes.
Arent you guys worried about air flow and having the correct kind of turbulence around the MAF sensor?
In WRX land it's a big no no to fool with the intake system it makes the MAF readings erratic, not to mention leaning things out in an incorrect way.
I'm curious if the A/F has changed at all across the board, and the only real performance improvements you are feeling are from a mis reading MAF sensor.
What about the other times you have to drive the car when not at WOT? How's very light part throttle (like feathering in a corner), or long term closed loop driving?
It's hilarious when people say they've done a mod, but then say they've done so many other things along with it (at the same time)...how do you really feel what you've done? Not to mention the butt dyno is easily fooled.
I'd rather keep my cold air from the OEM until more times passes with these intakes.
Anyone who truly thinks this mod makes their car "feel faster" is delusional. The sounds under the hood are dramatically changed, and you're being fooled into thinking you're gaining performance. I don't trust dynos on these systems, either. You can blow a fan right on the element of an opened hood and procure WHP. Fast forward to when you're running down the track with your hood closed at 7000rpm in a stupid-hot engine bay with rising heat from the motor absolutely cooking the unprotected filter and you'll realize that a WAI will make you LOSE power.
Our stock airboxes can handle 500whp; I don't think I need a CAI or WAI on a factory turbocharged car. They sound cool, and DO make power in some restricitve stock airboxed NA applications (I've seen an AEM CAI make 14whp on an RSX-S with my own eyes- fan not blowing on the element), but they're not going to do anything for a factory turbo car, except give your MAF a fit and make your BOV louder.
Intakes on factory forced induction cars.If Injen claims 10whp, you need to run the other way screaming "BS!", because it will be.
Want to make your car faster for real? Fuel management and exhaust work is a cost effective proven place to start!
Sep 2, 2003, 06:37 PM
#38
Account Disabled
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,026
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Worried about the flw to your MASS? That is what your Honey Comb is for on the MASS. It stratens the air for a more uniform flow, REGAURLESS of the intake after it. An INTAKE WILL Net power, period, less restriction to turbo suction, more air is sucked in for a given engine rotation, more air, leaner condition, hotter the combustion burn, more power. You think lean isbad, it is not, TOO LEAN is bad, but leaning a VERY rich condition is ok.
Turbo spool up is also faster, why? Less restriction on the turbo, meaning there is less friction and vaccum for teh compressor wheel to suck against, = FASTER SPOOL UP.
I do not know what all this arguing is about, intakes OWN on Turbo cars, they make so much power. Reducing ANY restriction on the turbo nest AMAZING gains, just look at what DP does to a turbo.
Get an intake, even just a filter, the Honey Combs are there to ensure proper airflow, make sure it is a K&N style filter element, you'll make power.
Turbo spool up is also faster, why? Less restriction on the turbo, meaning there is less friction and vaccum for teh compressor wheel to suck against, = FASTER SPOOL UP.
I do not know what all this arguing is about, intakes OWN on Turbo cars, they make so much power. Reducing ANY restriction on the turbo nest AMAZING gains, just look at what DP does to a turbo.
Get an intake, even just a filter, the Honey Combs are there to ensure proper airflow, make sure it is a K&N style filter element, you'll make power.
Sep 2, 2003, 06:43 PM
#39
Account Disabled
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,026
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh yeah another thing, IF you think having an open filter element in the engine is sucking in too much heat, I suggest you look at your intake.
Lets see here...
Filter, got it, MAs air pipe, got that, moving on, OH, a Turbo, that runs at 1600 Degrees F, hmmmmmmm. Ge I wonder if that 30 degree colder air is gona cool down that constant exhaust gas flow through a metal surface.
NOPE, plus a DYNO does not have winds at 70+MPH hitting it especially the FMIC, which need sthat air, it relys on it, to make real power.
Intakes work, even cheapo filters that fit over the mass, the less restriction the better. Stand alone units put a filter element right on the turbo, some just use a screan.
Also look at the airflow design of your EVO, it sucks in air down low, and blows it up through the hood, so you get a cold air effect any way, plus the stock ram air to get all those bugs you need for a healthy Growing EVo.
Lets see here...
Filter, got it, MAs air pipe, got that, moving on, OH, a Turbo, that runs at 1600 Degrees F, hmmmmmmm. Ge I wonder if that 30 degree colder air is gona cool down that constant exhaust gas flow through a metal surface.
NOPE, plus a DYNO does not have winds at 70+MPH hitting it especially the FMIC, which need sthat air, it relys on it, to make real power.
Intakes work, even cheapo filters that fit over the mass, the less restriction the better. Stand alone units put a filter element right on the turbo, some just use a screan.
Also look at the airflow design of your EVO, it sucks in air down low, and blows it up through the hood, so you get a cold air effect any way, plus the stock ram air to get all those bugs you need for a healthy Growing EVo.
Sep 2, 2003, 07:06 PM
#40
You're making a sweeping unilateral generalization that simply isn't correct in several applications.
Leaning out a factory rich car a bit will most likely not cause damage, but a car that is already significantly leaner with an SAFC could cause enough problems that would make the car run like crap in extended heat situations. Having seen hundreds of dyno runs locally, I'm here to tell you that an underhood element CAN hurt performance.
If intakes are so great, why do tuners like Vishnu, Works, and TurboXS purposefully NOT use them on their Evo performance upgrade packages?
I liked your little snide remark about the 30 degree cooler air and 1600 degree heat slam, but its time for you to go to school, son.
FACT: Denser, cooler air and less humidity make more power, PERIOD. That is very simple truth that is super easy to prove. Look no further than uncorrected numbers on dyno runs all across the nation for which support this fact. Uncorrected for temperature and humidity, an Evo might make 255whp on a crisp December morning, but 208whp in hot, humid August.
You personally might not like the stock box, but it is very well insulated from the power robbing heat of flowing off the manifold and turbo, all trapped together under the hood. The outer scoop routes in cool air, and that air is surrounded by the stock box- protecting it from said heat. An intake just sits there and bakes in extremely hot weather. The ECU will see hotter intake temps and adapt accordingly to protect the engine.
A WRX is a great example of a reason to not run an intake. My EGTs were very borderline at mid-high rpm with just a filter element. Put the stock airbox back in with a K&N filter, and voila, EGTs dropped 120 degrees, right back into intended safe range.
Whether or not you believe my counsel, Umiami80, is not my concern. I'm offering Rollaway a good hypothesis to try to get his car in the 12s where it is supposed to be.
Happy tuning!
Leaning out a factory rich car a bit will most likely not cause damage, but a car that is already significantly leaner with an SAFC could cause enough problems that would make the car run like crap in extended heat situations. Having seen hundreds of dyno runs locally, I'm here to tell you that an underhood element CAN hurt performance.
If intakes are so great, why do tuners like Vishnu, Works, and TurboXS purposefully NOT use them on their Evo performance upgrade packages?
I liked your little snide remark about the 30 degree cooler air and 1600 degree heat slam, but its time for you to go to school, son.
FACT: Denser, cooler air and less humidity make more power, PERIOD. That is very simple truth that is super easy to prove. Look no further than uncorrected numbers on dyno runs all across the nation for which support this fact. Uncorrected for temperature and humidity, an Evo might make 255whp on a crisp December morning, but 208whp in hot, humid August. You personally might not like the stock box, but it is very well insulated from the power robbing heat of flowing off the manifold and turbo, all trapped together under the hood. The outer scoop routes in cool air, and that air is surrounded by the stock box- protecting it from said heat. An intake just sits there and bakes in extremely hot weather. The ECU will see hotter intake temps and adapt accordingly to protect the engine.
A WRX is a great example of a reason to not run an intake. My EGTs were very borderline at mid-high rpm with just a filter element. Put the stock airbox back in with a K&N filter, and voila, EGTs dropped 120 degrees, right back into intended safe range.
Whether or not you believe my counsel, Umiami80, is not my concern. I'm offering Rollaway a good hypothesis to try to get his car in the 12s where it is supposed to be.
Happy tuning!
Sep 2, 2003, 07:45 PM
#41
Account Disabled
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,026
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're making a sweeping unilateral generalization that simply isn't correct in several applications.
If intakes are so great, why do tuners like Vishnu, Works, and TurboXS purposefully NOT use them on their Evo performance upgrade packages?
Because they wana sell their own products? Works just offers a reflash which doesn't even allow a boost increase, WTF is the point? Once you start modding you need to tune. Great mod for a guy who wants a little more to be happy.
BTW BR makes the most power for the least amount of Money. I Suggest you stop listening to what venders are trying to sell you and look at numbers, as they never lie.
Truth is, the best way to make power out of these motors is run a leaner curve, up boost, and leave timing alone on pump gas, this nest the most streetable power and allows the car to fight against detonation, as the timing allows 18+ Degrees of timing already.
FACT: Denser, cooler air and less humidity make more power, PERIOD
RIght, perfect, but what happens to that DENSER, COOLER, AIR when you run it through a compressor that is 1600 Degrees? You tell me? Maybe that is why they have a FMIC on the car?
An intake just sits there and bakes in extremely hot weather.
AGain, do not compair the tuning nightmare of a WRX vs the simple and forgiving Evo. It is a very smart car, will recognise more or less air, and sdjust more or less fuel accordingly. WIth more boost is always more fuel with a rising rate FPR, the car has PLENTY of room to add more fuel to its air increase, this is what the car does.
Again I alsoe have 5 years building these things under my belt, how many have you built?
Not trying to be mean, but you are taking advice from vendors trying to pedal their goods.
The biggest thing to realize is the BIG 16G on your EVO is way bigger then the turbo run on your WRX, hell even he sti.
WRX has a 13B, these were used on Auto DSM's to get quitc spoolup, can't even make 300WHP or hold constant boost.
STi has a Turbo almost identical in flow to a 14B and what you upgraded to Minus the BB's, A little better, but already choked from the 2.5 and no topend what so ever, then you have the BIG 16G.
14B=380CFM's which may make 300WHP on race gas and struggles to hold even 20PSI to the red on a 2.0.
BIG 16G=550-600CFM's, BIG difference, so big mitsu limited it VERY much. This turbo has run 11's at 121MPH, needs unrestricted air flow, like a 3.0 intake, and a open filiment not restricted by a stock Inlet/air box/ and MAS pipe.
Dude, just get a Intake filter, did you even try it?
Last edited by umiami80; Sep 2, 2003 at 07:49 PM.
Sep 2, 2003, 08:58 PM
#42
I'm not going to stay around to see saw with you all night, but I'll rise to this debate one more time before I go to bed. We disagree; that's fine. I had a 2G DSM a few cars back, and modified it. IMO, the Evo's ECU is much more dynamic and adaptable.
**Buschur's website** quotes that their filter is worth "about 4whp" on an Evo. So if that is "so much power" in your opinion, color me unimpressed. Sounds like he's completely honest and right on the mark, IMO.
The point is an invisible and reliable 25 whp for $450. They are going to offer a full TBE in the near future. I never said the reflash is tunable by the end user, but on a finished car, I'd prefer its iron clad repeatability over dinosaur SAFC technology. The reflash CAN manage timing and boost in addition to air:fuel. It has more potential in the end if tuned properly by a dealer with the software to manipulate it. Want all those things WITH end user tunability? Don't even get me started on how the Xede and UTEC smash the SAFC and allow so much more control.
Buschur has AWESOME QUALITY affordable exhaust components, but I don't want an SAFC for fuel management. I want one piggyback system that I can access from my laptop that datalogs and manages everything in one box. If you look through the seeing glass into the not-so-distant future, Buschur Racing is rumored to ...gasp... offer one of these new school piggybacks with the defauly maps tuned specifically for his great hardware components!!
I agree with attaining air:fuel nirvana for power, but I disagree with you completely on ignoring the timing. You've suggested I go read up, and you need to do the same and look at the effect of midrange whp on an Evo with managed timing.
Either you are closing your eyes when you read my responses (likely), or you aren't understanding to what I'm trying to convey here (doubtful). Are you saying that a stock Evo is completely uneffected by temperature variances? Do you think people who are running faster 1320 times in 30 degree cooler weather have Sneaky Pete nitrous lines hidden under their intakes? Of course you don't!! What is your point here? I'm very clear how an intercooler works, thanks.
Ding ding ding!!!! I agree completely! I would never install a CAI on my car. The problem of an open WAI element exacerbates itself the worst when its the most important: Drag racing. You're heated up from a dead stop, and your element is baking under the hood. For 4whp in cool conditions, I sure don't want one when I'm drag racing or autocrossing at low speeds, not allowing a lot of "highway speed" airflow in there.
My WRX reference was made to battle your over generalization of "all turbo cars make power with an intake". I supplied a valid example that showed your statement was not correct.
Pissing match again? Its like college all over. The ME guys fighting with the MET guys. I mentioned before that I had a 4G63 car a few years back, and have tuned several AFCs on a 248C dynojet. I think I'm more than eligable to have this debate.
You still aren't listening to me. I'm not trying to be mean either, but I want an all in one unit that has the ability to control boost, timing, rev limit, and A:F ratios. An AFC is an old, crude and incomplete device that isn't going in my $30,000 car! Have you played with a new generation stand alone? If you like Apex-i products, check out the Power FC! You act like advances in the industry are taboo and won't make more power. The DSM contingent of Evo-World won't drop the SAFC until someone prys it from their corpses. There are great economically priced alternatives to the SAFC out there, man! And they give you a LOT more control. Gone are the days you need an MBC/EBC for boost, TMO for interface and datalogging, and an SAFC for air:fuel all working together to control everything. One product like an Xede or UTEC can do every bit of it and cost less!
I'm well aware of that.
I'm intimately aware of that fact. I pulled the lackluster 13B, but not before it took me to 13.30@101.81 with a Unichip and a TBE, with stock intake. Not too shabby for a lackluster small turbo in a 3200 lb AWD wagon with a heat soaking TMIC, crappy long exhaust routing to the turbine, and lousy tall gearing, eh?
It does flow appreciable better than a 14B, and yes, its not in the league of a Big (or small) 16G. Its an IHI made unit called a vf39. I had the earlier version called the vf30 (no ball bearing center section- spooled about 250rpm slower) as my upgrade turbo. It was cheap, and the aluminum block EJ205 doesn't like to reliably run more than 17psi of boost. The US STi's EJ25 does have Hurcules-like low end torque that a 4G63 or WRX's EJ205 cannot fathom, though.
You should see the crapola 13b in a WRX! It can't even hold 15psi to redline in the bottom 3 gears. Talk about not much to work with!
I appreciate you, really. You're offering help and it would be stupid of me if I didn't take your opinions to heart. If you look closely, we actually agree about a lot of things, and I'd go as far to say that we could even learn a thing or two from each other. I'm certainly not questioning Buschur's upgrade path, I've watched his racecars with interest for years. He really pioneered 4G63 drag racing in the USA, and I'm thankful for that as well.
I guess the points we don't see eye to eye on are the fuel management (we have to admit both of our solutions work), and the WAI (warm air intake element). My 2G had one, and it didn't really gain any power. It sounded cool as crap, but didn't do anything for forward thrust. Of course, that car had a weaksauce T25, which even makes the sorry 13B look appealing in comparison.
I've enjoyed this conversation/debating with you, Umiami80. It has been a lot of fun! But now I am for sleeping. Take care, man!
you better call up Buschur racing (the best man to touch a 4G63 period) and tell him that his setup is all wrong, and to stop making so much power with an open element filter, because he is wrong.
Because they wana sell their own products? Works just offers a reflash which doesn't even allow a boost increase, WTF is the point? Once you start modding you need to tune. Great mod for a guy who wants a little more to be happy.
BTW BR makes the most power for the least amount of Money. I Suggest you stop listening to what venders are trying to sell you and look at numbers, as they never lie.
Truth is, the best way to make power out of these motors is run a leaner curve, up boost, and leave timing alone on pump gas, this nest the most streetable power and allows the car to fight against detonation, as the timing allows 18+ Degrees of timing already.
RIght, perfect, but what happens to that DENSER, COOLER, AIR when you run it through a compressor that is 1600 Degrees? You tell me? Maybe that is why they have a FMIC on the car?
Yup that extremely hot weather at highways speeds, have you looked at the big, gaping ducts on the front of your car? DO you realize that air is channeled from thr bottom, up through the turbo, and then through the hood? Kinda why there is a VENT there. Heat? SUre at a dead idle stop, but after it hits the turbo, it is all the same, it is so hot, you want an efficient ic to make power, not a cold air intake, that is why colder air helps so much, other wise a IC woul dnot be needed and a cold air intake would be enough.
AGain, do not compair the tuning nightmare of a WRX vs the simple and forgiving Evo. It is a very smart car, will recognise more or less air, and sdjust more or less fuel accordingly. WIth more boost is always more fuel with a rising rate FPR, the car has PLENTY of room to add more fuel to its air increase, this is what the car does.
gain I alsoe have 5 years building these things under my belt, how many have you built?
Not trying to be mean, but you are taking advice from vendors trying to pedal their goods.
The biggest thing to realize is the BIG 16G on your EVO is way bigger then the turbo run on your WRX, hell even he sti.
WRX has a 13B, these were used on Auto DSM's to get quitc spoolup, can't even make 300WHP or hold constant boost.
Not too shabby for a lackluster small turbo in a 3200 lb AWD wagon with a heat soaking TMIC, crappy long exhaust routing to the turbine, and lousy tall gearing, eh?
STi has a Turbo almost identical in flow to a 14B, A little bettr, but allready choked from the 2.5 and no topend what so ever, then you have the BIG 16G.
14B=380CFM's which may make 300WHP on race gas and struggles to hold even 20PSI to the red on a 2.0.
BIG 16G=550-600CFM's, BIG difference, so big mitsu limited it VERY much. This turbo has run 11's at 121MPH, needs unrestricted air flow, like a 3.0 intake, and a open filiment not restricted by a stock Inlet/air box/ and MAS pipe.
Dude, just get a Intake filter, did you even try it?
Dude, just get a Intake filter, did you even try it?
I guess the points we don't see eye to eye on are the fuel management (we have to admit both of our solutions work), and the WAI (warm air intake element). My 2G had one, and it didn't really gain any power. It sounded cool as crap, but didn't do anything for forward thrust. Of course, that car had a weaksauce T25, which even makes the sorry 13B look appealing in comparison.
I've enjoyed this conversation/debating with you, Umiami80. It has been a lot of fun! But now I am for sleeping. Take care, man!
Sep 3, 2003, 05:28 AM
#43
Evolved Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 900
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You guys are sick! The AFC/AFR is the cheapest HP per dollar device out right now. Nothing like a XEDE or reflash or Utec or Motec or hell even a Motown. It is a proven tool that is user friendly and does what it needs to do. It is limited in functions of other units, but hey it was designed to do one thing. BTW, it does it well. BTW, the Intake debate needs to rest on this site in general. Later
Sep 3, 2003, 08:16 AM
#44
Evolving Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kirkland, WA
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I forwarded the question to one of my customers, Second Street Racing in PA. (I sell military and aerospace grade connectors and harnesses). They build race cars for drag and Nascar.
their answer ? If you suck in hot air, you cannot make up loss of oxygen density in the intercooler. The intake charge may be cooled, but you still end up with lower quality compressed air going into your motor.
their answer ? If you suck in hot air, you cannot make up loss of oxygen density in the intercooler. The intake charge may be cooled, but you still end up with lower quality compressed air going into your motor.
Sep 3, 2003, 06:34 PM
#45
Account Disabled
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,026
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not going to stay around to see saw with you all night, but I'll rise to this debate one more time before I go to bed. We disagree; that's fine. I had a 2G DSM a few cars back, and modified it. IMO, the Evo's ECU is much more dynamic and adaptable.
quote:
you better call up Buschur racing (the best man to touch a 4G63 period) and tell him that his setup is all wrong, and to stop making so much power with an open element filter, because he is wrong.
**Buschur's website** quotes that their filter is worth "about 4whp" on an Evo. So if that is "so much power" in your opinion, color me unimpressed. Sounds like he's completely honest and right on the mark, IMO.
quote:
Because they wana sell their own products? Works just offers a reflash which doesn't even allow a boost increase, WTF is the point? Once you start modding you need to tune. Great mod for a guy who wants a little more to be happy.
The point is an invisible and reliable 25 whp for $450. They are going to offer a full TBE in the near future. I never said the reflash is tunable by the end user, but on a finished car, I'd prefer its iron clad repeatability over dinosaur SAFC technology. The reflash CAN manage timing and boost in addition to air:fuel. It has more potential in the end if tuned properly by a dealer with the software to manipulate it. Want all those things WITH end user tunability? Don't even get me started on how the Xede and UTEC smash the SAFC and allow so much more control.
quote:
BTW BR makes the most power for the least amount of Money. I Suggest you stop listening to what venders are trying to sell you and look at numbers, as they never lie.
Buschur has AWESOME QUALITY affordable exhaust components, but I don't want an SAFC for fuel management. I want one piggyback system that I can access from my laptop that datalogs and manages everything in one box. If you look through the seeing glass into the not-so-distant future, Buschur Racing is rumored to ...gasp... offer one of these new school piggybacks with the defauly maps tuned specifically for his great hardware components!!
quote:
Truth is, the best way to make power out of these motors is run a leaner curve, up boost, and leave timing alone on pump gas, this nest the most streetable power and allows the car to fight against detonation, as the timing allows 18+ Degrees of timing already.
I agree with attaining air:fuel nirvana for power, but I disagree with you completely on ignoring the timing. You've suggested I go read up, and you need to do the same and look at the effect of midrange whp on an Evo with managed timing.
quote:
RIght, perfect, but what happens to that DENSER, COOLER, AIR when you run it through a compressor that is 1600 Degrees? You tell me? Maybe that is why they have a FMIC on the car?
Either you are closing your eyes when you read my responses (likely), or you aren't understanding to what I'm trying to convey here (doubtful). Are you saying that a stock Evo is completely uneffected by temperature variances? Do you think people who are running faster 1320 times in 30 degree cooler weather have Sneaky Pete nitrous lines hidden under their intakes? Of course you don't!! What is your point here? I'm very clear how an intercooler works, thanks.
quote:
Yup that extremely hot weather at highways speeds, have you looked at the big, gaping ducts on the front of your car? DO you realize that air is channeled from thr bottom, up through the turbo, and then through the hood? Kinda why there is a VENT there. Heat? SUre at a dead idle stop, but after it hits the turbo, it is all the same, it is so hot, you want an efficient ic to make power, not a cold air intake, that is why colder air helps so much, other wise a IC woul dnot be needed and a cold air intake would be enough.
Ding ding ding!!!! I agree completely! I would never install a CAI on my car. The problem of an open WAI element exacerbates itself the worst when its the most important: Drag racing. You're heated up from a dead stop, and your element is baking under the hood. For 4whp in cool conditions, I sure don't want one when I'm drag racing or autocrossing at low speeds, not allowing a lot of "highway speed" airflow in there.
quote:
AGain, do not compair the tuning nightmare of a WRX vs the simple and forgiving Evo. It is a very smart car, will recognise more or less air, and sdjust more or less fuel accordingly. WIth more boost is always more fuel with a rising rate FPR, the car has PLENTY of room to add more fuel to its air increase, this is what the car does.
My WRX reference was made to battle your over generalization of "all turbo cars make power with an intake". I supplied a valid example that showed your statement was not correct.
quote:
gain I alsoe have 5 years building these things under my belt, how many have you built?
Pissing match again? Its like college all over. The ME guys fighting with the MET guys. I mentioned before that I had a 4G63 car a few years back, and have tuned several AFCs on a 248C dynojet. I think I'm more than eligable to have this debate.
quote:
Not trying to be mean, but you are taking advice from vendors trying to pedal their goods.
You still aren't listening to me. I'm not trying to be mean either, but I want an all in one unit that has the ability to control boost, timing, rev limit, and A:F ratios. An AFC is an old, crude and incomplete device that isn't going in my $30,000 car! Have you played with a new generation stand alone? If you like Apex-i products, check out the Power FC! You act like advances in the industry are taboo and won't make more power. The DSM contingent of Evo-World won't drop the SAFC until someone prys it from their corpses. There are great economically priced alternatives to the SAFC out there, man! And they give you a LOT more control. Gone are the days you need an MBC/EBC for boost, TMO for interface and datalogging, and an SAFC for air:fuel all working together to control everything. One product like an Xede or UTEC can do every bit of it and cost less!
quote:
The biggest thing to realize is the BIG 16G on your EVO is way bigger then the turbo run on your WRX, hell even he sti.
I'm well aware of that.
quote:
WRX has a 13B, these were used on Auto DSM's to get quitc spoolup, can't even make 300WHP or hold constant boost.
I'm intimately aware of that fact. I pulled the lackluster 13B, but not before it took me to 13.30@101.81 with a Unichip and a TBE, with stock intake. Not too shabby for a lackluster small turbo in a 3200 lb AWD wagon with a heat soaking TMIC, crappy long exhaust routing to the turbine, and lousy tall gearing, eh?
quote:
STi has a Turbo almost identical in flow to a 14B, A little bettr, but allready choked from the 2.5 and no topend what so ever, then you have the BIG 16G.
It does flow appreciable better than a 14B, and yes, its not in the league of a Big (or small) 16G. Its an IHI made unit called a vf39. I had the earlier version called the vf30 (no ball bearing center section- spooled about 250rpm slower) as my upgrade turbo. It was cheap, and the aluminum block EJ205 doesn't like to reliably run more than 17psi of boost. The US STi's EJ25 does have Hurcules-like low end torque that a 4G63 or WRX's EJ205 cannot fathom, though.
quote:
14B=380CFM's which may make 300WHP on race gas and struggles to hold even 20PSI to the red on a 2.0.
You should see the crapola 13b in a WRX! It can't even hold 15psi to redline in the bottom 3 gears. Talk about not much to work with!
quote:
BIG 16G=550-600CFM's, BIG difference, so big mitsu limited it VERY much. This turbo has run 11's at 121MPH, needs unrestricted air flow, like a 3.0 intake, and a open filiment not restricted by a stock Inlet/air box/ and MAS pipe.
Dude, just get a Intake filter, did you even try it?
I appreciate you, really. You're offering help and it would be stupid of me if I didn't take your opinions to heart. If you look closely, we actually agree about a lot of things, and I'd go as far to say that we could even learn a thing or two from each other. I'm certainly not questioning Buschur's upgrade path, I've watched his racecars with interest for years. He really pioneered 4G63 drag racing in the USA, and I'm thankful for that as well.
I guess the points we don't see eye to eye on are the fuel management (we have to admit both of our solutions work), and the WAI (warm air intake element). My 2G had one, and it didn't really gain any power. It sounded cool as crap, but didn't do anything for forward thrust. Of course, that car had a weaksauce T25, which even makes the sorry 13B look appealing in comparison.
I've enjoyed this conversation/debating with you, Umiami80. It has been a lot of fun! But now I am for sleeping. Take care, man!
quote:
you better call up Buschur racing (the best man to touch a 4G63 period) and tell him that his setup is all wrong, and to stop making so much power with an open element filter, because he is wrong.
**Buschur's website** quotes that their filter is worth "about 4whp" on an Evo. So if that is "so much power" in your opinion, color me unimpressed. Sounds like he's completely honest and right on the mark, IMO.
quote:
Because they wana sell their own products? Works just offers a reflash which doesn't even allow a boost increase, WTF is the point? Once you start modding you need to tune. Great mod for a guy who wants a little more to be happy.
The point is an invisible and reliable 25 whp for $450. They are going to offer a full TBE in the near future. I never said the reflash is tunable by the end user, but on a finished car, I'd prefer its iron clad repeatability over dinosaur SAFC technology. The reflash CAN manage timing and boost in addition to air:fuel. It has more potential in the end if tuned properly by a dealer with the software to manipulate it. Want all those things WITH end user tunability? Don't even get me started on how the Xede and UTEC smash the SAFC and allow so much more control.
quote:
BTW BR makes the most power for the least amount of Money. I Suggest you stop listening to what venders are trying to sell you and look at numbers, as they never lie.
Buschur has AWESOME QUALITY affordable exhaust components, but I don't want an SAFC for fuel management. I want one piggyback system that I can access from my laptop that datalogs and manages everything in one box. If you look through the seeing glass into the not-so-distant future, Buschur Racing is rumored to ...gasp... offer one of these new school piggybacks with the defauly maps tuned specifically for his great hardware components!!
quote:
Truth is, the best way to make power out of these motors is run a leaner curve, up boost, and leave timing alone on pump gas, this nest the most streetable power and allows the car to fight against detonation, as the timing allows 18+ Degrees of timing already.
I agree with attaining air:fuel nirvana for power, but I disagree with you completely on ignoring the timing. You've suggested I go read up, and you need to do the same and look at the effect of midrange whp on an Evo with managed timing.
quote:
RIght, perfect, but what happens to that DENSER, COOLER, AIR when you run it through a compressor that is 1600 Degrees? You tell me? Maybe that is why they have a FMIC on the car?
Either you are closing your eyes when you read my responses (likely), or you aren't understanding to what I'm trying to convey here (doubtful). Are you saying that a stock Evo is completely uneffected by temperature variances? Do you think people who are running faster 1320 times in 30 degree cooler weather have Sneaky Pete nitrous lines hidden under their intakes? Of course you don't!! What is your point here? I'm very clear how an intercooler works, thanks.
quote:
Yup that extremely hot weather at highways speeds, have you looked at the big, gaping ducts on the front of your car? DO you realize that air is channeled from thr bottom, up through the turbo, and then through the hood? Kinda why there is a VENT there. Heat? SUre at a dead idle stop, but after it hits the turbo, it is all the same, it is so hot, you want an efficient ic to make power, not a cold air intake, that is why colder air helps so much, other wise a IC woul dnot be needed and a cold air intake would be enough.
Ding ding ding!!!! I agree completely! I would never install a CAI on my car. The problem of an open WAI element exacerbates itself the worst when its the most important: Drag racing. You're heated up from a dead stop, and your element is baking under the hood. For 4whp in cool conditions, I sure don't want one when I'm drag racing or autocrossing at low speeds, not allowing a lot of "highway speed" airflow in there.
quote:
AGain, do not compair the tuning nightmare of a WRX vs the simple and forgiving Evo. It is a very smart car, will recognise more or less air, and sdjust more or less fuel accordingly. WIth more boost is always more fuel with a rising rate FPR, the car has PLENTY of room to add more fuel to its air increase, this is what the car does.
My WRX reference was made to battle your over generalization of "all turbo cars make power with an intake". I supplied a valid example that showed your statement was not correct.
quote:
gain I alsoe have 5 years building these things under my belt, how many have you built?
Pissing match again? Its like college all over. The ME guys fighting with the MET guys. I mentioned before that I had a 4G63 car a few years back, and have tuned several AFCs on a 248C dynojet. I think I'm more than eligable to have this debate.
quote:
Not trying to be mean, but you are taking advice from vendors trying to pedal their goods.
You still aren't listening to me. I'm not trying to be mean either, but I want an all in one unit that has the ability to control boost, timing, rev limit, and A:F ratios. An AFC is an old, crude and incomplete device that isn't going in my $30,000 car! Have you played with a new generation stand alone? If you like Apex-i products, check out the Power FC! You act like advances in the industry are taboo and won't make more power. The DSM contingent of Evo-World won't drop the SAFC until someone prys it from their corpses. There are great economically priced alternatives to the SAFC out there, man! And they give you a LOT more control. Gone are the days you need an MBC/EBC for boost, TMO for interface and datalogging, and an SAFC for air:fuel all working together to control everything. One product like an Xede or UTEC can do every bit of it and cost less!
quote:
The biggest thing to realize is the BIG 16G on your EVO is way bigger then the turbo run on your WRX, hell even he sti.
I'm well aware of that.
quote:
WRX has a 13B, these were used on Auto DSM's to get quitc spoolup, can't even make 300WHP or hold constant boost.
I'm intimately aware of that fact. I pulled the lackluster 13B, but not before it took me to 13.30@101.81 with a Unichip and a TBE, with stock intake. Not too shabby for a lackluster small turbo in a 3200 lb AWD wagon with a heat soaking TMIC, crappy long exhaust routing to the turbine, and lousy tall gearing, eh?
quote:
STi has a Turbo almost identical in flow to a 14B, A little bettr, but allready choked from the 2.5 and no topend what so ever, then you have the BIG 16G.
It does flow appreciable better than a 14B, and yes, its not in the league of a Big (or small) 16G. Its an IHI made unit called a vf39. I had the earlier version called the vf30 (no ball bearing center section- spooled about 250rpm slower) as my upgrade turbo. It was cheap, and the aluminum block EJ205 doesn't like to reliably run more than 17psi of boost. The US STi's EJ25 does have Hurcules-like low end torque that a 4G63 or WRX's EJ205 cannot fathom, though.
quote:
14B=380CFM's which may make 300WHP on race gas and struggles to hold even 20PSI to the red on a 2.0.
You should see the crapola 13b in a WRX! It can't even hold 15psi to redline in the bottom 3 gears. Talk about not much to work with!
quote:
BIG 16G=550-600CFM's, BIG difference, so big mitsu limited it VERY much. This turbo has run 11's at 121MPH, needs unrestricted air flow, like a 3.0 intake, and a open filiment not restricted by a stock Inlet/air box/ and MAS pipe.
Dude, just get a Intake filter, did you even try it?
I appreciate you, really. You're offering help and it would be stupid of me if I didn't take your opinions to heart. If you look closely, we actually agree about a lot of things, and I'd go as far to say that we could even learn a thing or two from each other. I'm certainly not questioning Buschur's upgrade path, I've watched his racecars with interest for years. He really pioneered 4G63 drag racing in the USA, and I'm thankful for that as well.
I guess the points we don't see eye to eye on are the fuel management (we have to admit both of our solutions work), and the WAI (warm air intake element). My 2G had one, and it didn't really gain any power. It sounded cool as crap, but didn't do anything for forward thrust. Of course, that car had a weaksauce T25, which even makes the sorry 13B look appealing in comparison.
I've enjoyed this conversation/debating with you, Umiami80. It has been a lot of fun! But now I am for sleeping. Take care, man!
WOW, I thought you didn't want to debate?!?!?!?!?!?!
All right, The FILTER kit is 4 WHP on a stock evo, that is just a filter and NO tuning, why would it make that much power? You didn't even turn up the boost? Plus they didn't even upgrade the Inlet pipe, which is also a major restriction. Intake and up the boost = power.
AFC works, and uses the same exact technology as the other items you just mentioned, it does not adjust timing, but is very CHEAP and makes power easilly and is into the 11's on pump gas with an INTAKE/BOV/AND exhaust, what more do you want, this is about $2000 in mods?
BTW I would like an EMANAGE too, but I can't justify spending that much, upping timing on pump gas is a DANGEROUS thing, but is great on race gas.
Advancing timing DOES make power, but what to do with a Guy out in Cally with 91? This will get massive detonation. The ECU will advance timing up to the point of detonation, if you tune properly, it'll advance far enough, I am speaking of PUMP gas of course, if you have 116, then advance away.
13.3 is a great time!!! AWD DSM's Have been known to yank high 12's with that but on race gas, but nice run.
Are the aluminum blocks that bad? I thought you guys could run big boost? There is some nut here in Jerzy with a WRX with a 60 trim running 25PSI and 420WHP on stock internals, he is QUITE FAST, that seems pretty stout, but upgraded the head bolts and studs.
I did infact pick up some power on my 2G with an intake filter, even whit the crappy 2G UPIC pipe, which went a week later.
I like the idea that a warm air intake sucks in less 02 then a CIA, but as you can see, you are moving, and have huge ducts going through the car, plus a heat shelid, plus the ram air intake. I guess if you were sucking in nothing but hot, sticky air (DYNO!!!) with no air cooling off anything, you would make less power.
Last edited by umiami80; Sep 3, 2003 at 06:39 PM.