FP RED dispelling twin scroll myths.
Oct 3, 2008, 10:21 AM
#17
I am all for dispelling anti-TS myths, but I wouldn't give too much credit to the Red for it though. When properly matched, twin scroll definitely works. The main reason it gets dismissed by some people is because:
1) People saw results from mismatched or less than optimal setups. Having seperate runners and divided housing alone are not going to reap the full benefits of true TS.
2) People, especially the dyno and drag crowd, have a hard time justifying the additional cost of an externally wastegated TS setup when compared dyno graph and drag ET results of an open setup.
Does this mean TS doesn't work how it is supposed to? Absolutely not!
Steve, thanks for mentioning the BW turbos. They often fly below the radar, until they deliver performance that rivals that of GT turbos. they also are available in divided T4 as well.
I have a hunch that a properly configured TS Borg Warner turbo would produce some very good results compared to a open T3 GT turbo of similar size.
1) People saw results from mismatched or less than optimal setups. Having seperate runners and divided housing alone are not going to reap the full benefits of true TS.
2) People, especially the dyno and drag crowd, have a hard time justifying the additional cost of an externally wastegated TS setup when compared dyno graph and drag ET results of an open setup.
Does this mean TS doesn't work how it is supposed to? Absolutely not!
Steve, thanks for mentioning the BW turbos. They often fly below the radar, until they deliver performance that rivals that of GT turbos. they also are available in divided T4 as well.
I have a hunch that a properly configured TS Borg Warner turbo would produce some very good results compared to a open T3 GT turbo of similar size.
Last edited by hokiruu; Oct 3, 2008 at 10:25 AM.
Oct 3, 2008, 01:34 PM
#18
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Steve, thanks for mentioning the BW turbos. They often fly below the radar, until they deliver performance that rivals that of GT turbos. they also are available in divided T4 as well.
I have a hunch that a properly configured TS Borg Warner turbo would produce some very good results compared to a open T3 GT turbo of similar size.
I have a hunch that a properly configured TS Borg Warner turbo would produce some very good results compared to a open T3 GT turbo of similar size.
Oct 3, 2008, 02:01 PM
#19
Yes, that is exactly what I am talking about Steve. Pure excellence. I wonder what the "HTA > Twinscroll" advocates have to say about that? (besides "yeah but we spent $X less") 
Who fabricated that manifold BTW? Also interesting to see another single EWG TS in use. Is the WG housing divided all the way up to the WG?
I am still reading up on this, but while we're on the subject, how do you feel the BW units hold up to extended high temps that are experieced during road racing, being oil cooled only and journal bearing?
Who fabricated that manifold BTW? Also interesting to see another single EWG TS in use. Is the WG housing divided all the way up to the WG?I am still reading up on this, but while we're on the subject, how do you feel the BW units hold up to extended high temps that are experieced during road racing, being oil cooled only and journal bearing?
Last edited by hokiruu; Oct 3, 2008 at 02:20 PM.
Oct 3, 2008, 02:14 PM
#20
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Yes, that is exactly what I am talking about Steve. Pure excellence. I wonder what the "HTA > Twinscroll" advocates have to say about that? Who fabricated that manifold BTW? Also interesting to see another single EWG TS in use. Is the WG housing divided all the way up to the WG?
I am still reading up on this, but while we're on the subject, how do you feel the BW units hold up to extended high temps that are experieced during road racing, being oil cooled only and journal bearing?
Who fabricated that manifold BTW? Also interesting to see another single EWG TS in use. Is the WG housing divided all the way up to the WG?I am still reading up on this, but while we're on the subject, how do you feel the BW units hold up to extended high temps that are experieced during road racing, being oil cooled only and journal bearing?
Oct 3, 2008, 02:28 PM
#21
not to go off topic. but i have a FULL RACE t3 TWIN SCROLL manifold for sale, i have a t3 1.06 hotside for sale and the mid pipe and down pipe for sale. all you would need is a turbo, dump tubes, water/oil lines and intake. which i may also sell but not yet. but for the mani, hotside, and 2 piece dp im asking 1800.00... i have not made a thread yet but i will in a short time. P.S. if you want it. dont pm me unless you plain to buy and have 1800.00.....
and TS rules. you just need to set it up right. you cant go using small hotsides in TS. i dont want to get involved in another TS thread again. im sure the TS people understand why. good luck.
and TS rules. you just need to set it up right. you cant go using small hotsides in TS. i dont want to get involved in another TS thread again. im sure the TS people understand why. good luck.
Last edited by EvoDan2004; Oct 3, 2008 at 02:34 PM.
Oct 3, 2008, 02:37 PM
#22
not to go off topic. but i have a FULL RACE t3 TWIN SCROLL manifold for sale, i have a t3 1.06 hotside for sale and the mid pipe and down pipe for sale. all you would need is a turbo, dump tubes, water/oil lines and intake. which i may also sell but not yet. but for the mani, hotside, and 2 piece dp im asking 1800.00... i have not made a thread yet but i will in a short time. P.S. if you want it. dont pm me unless you plain to buy and have 1800.00.....
and TS rules. you just need to set it up right. you cant go using small hotsides in TS. i dont want to get involved in another TS thread again. im sure the TS people understand why. good luck.
and TS rules. you just need to set it up right. you cant go using small hotsides in TS. i dont want to get involved in another TS thread again. im sure the TS people understand why. good luck.
Oct 3, 2008, 03:50 PM
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Yes, that is exactly what I am talking about Steve. Pure excellence. I wonder what the "HTA > Twinscroll" advocates have to say about that? (besides "yeah but we spent $X less") Who fabricated that manifold BTW? Also interesting to see another single EWG TS in use. Is the WG housing divided all the way up to the WG?
I am still reading up on this, but while we're on the subject, how do you feel the BW units hold up to extended high temps that are experieced during road racing, being oil cooled only and journal bearing?
Who fabricated that manifold BTW? Also interesting to see another single EWG TS in use. Is the WG housing divided all the way up to the WG?I am still reading up on this, but while we're on the subject, how do you feel the BW units hold up to extended high temps that are experieced during road racing, being oil cooled only and journal bearing?
As for the BWs holding up, I cant speak for road racing, but I've run an S256 and S258 and both held up fine on the street and strip. Carl at GV's S366 has seen plenty of anti-lag abuse and passes and is doing well too. Personally, with the non-rebuildable nature of BB turbos, I'd rather run non-bb where you can rebuild it cheaper or even buy a new CHRA pretty reasonably. The whole reason the car pictured above has the S362 is because he had a 35r bolt-on and when we pulled it off to send it in for an HTA conversion found that the turbine wheel was chewed up. It ended up being cheaper to sell off the whole setup and do this than fix it and then pay for the HTA swap.
Link to mani: http://gvautosport.com/catalog/produ...roducts_id=567
Oct 3, 2008, 04:01 PM
#25
Thanks for the reply and info Steve. You mentioned another thing that I have been looking into: twin 38mm WGs vs. a single 44mm. I'd love to see that comparison info when you have it. Yeah the S256 is the size that would be most useful to me. I may be confused from the cross-research, but don't some of the BWs have a funky hexagonal 6 bolt outlet?
Oct 3, 2008, 09:37 PM
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you guys know way more on this subject then me but i remember a old debate on this subject and in my opinion ivan from ams put it best. with real world racing applications spool is not as important as topend because ideally you always want to be in boost. again i'm a novice but that makes sense to me.
Oct 3, 2008, 10:42 PM
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I was thinking today after reading some discussion here on EVOM about the FP Red.
A few months back I started a thread about the use of twin scroll designs in medium-large sized turbo's and how they would perform.
The general feel from the anti-twinscroll advocates was that it restricted top end performance.
I have always been of the opinion that a correctly matched hot side would prevent this from happening and still produce great results.
Other people were saying that twin scroll was only effective on small turbo's ie stock.
Well since the release and success of the FP RED how can this be still true?
The FP RED is starting to make power near to if not above a GT30R and is using the factory twin scroll design. It is even making power close to a 35R with the use of the correct fuel and mods.
What do you think? This is some great results for pro twin scroll, its making good power on such a relatively small turbo. Not really choking the top end much.
A few months back I started a thread about the use of twin scroll designs in medium-large sized turbo's and how they would perform.
The general feel from the anti-twinscroll advocates was that it restricted top end performance.
I have always been of the opinion that a correctly matched hot side would prevent this from happening and still produce great results.
Other people were saying that twin scroll was only effective on small turbo's ie stock.
Well since the release and success of the FP RED how can this be still true?
The FP RED is starting to make power near to if not above a GT30R and is using the factory twin scroll design. It is even making power close to a 35R with the use of the correct fuel and mods.
What do you think? This is some great results for pro twin scroll, its making good power on such a relatively small turbo. Not really choking the top end much.
Oct 6, 2008, 09:42 AM
#29
Large or small turbo, it makes no difference. They both operate within the same laws of physics. TS is as potentially effective on one as it is on the other. TS works for 4 cyl engines. This is evident beyond debate.
I've said at least a dozen times before, and as Aby has reiterated here, those who deride TS are those with the least amount of experience with it. Meanwhile, those who have the most experience with it definitely aren't complaining. I know I'm not.
I've said at least a dozen times before, and as Aby has reiterated here, those who deride TS are those with the least amount of experience with it. Meanwhile, those who have the most experience with it definitely aren't complaining. I know I'm not.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. " -arthur schopenhauer
(particularly appropriate since this forum seems to be more against TS than any other community ive ever seen... seems odd since these cars come with TS from the factory)
yeahhhh dan, about time! you will love it as much as going from ts30r to ts35r
Large or small turbo, it makes no difference. They both operate within the same laws of physics. TS is as potentially effective on one as it is on the other. TS works for 4 cyl engines. This is evident beyond debate.
I've said at least a dozen times before, and as Aby has reiterated here, those who deride TS are those with the least amount of experience with it. Meanwhile, those who have the most experience with it definitely aren't complaining. I know I'm not.
I've said at least a dozen times before, and as Aby has reiterated here, those who deride TS are those with the least amount of experience with it. Meanwhile, those who have the most experience with it definitely aren't complaining. I know I'm not.