Best LICP & FMIC Setup
Nov 19, 2008, 08:48 AM
#46
Since this was brought up over and over and over in the other thread that was just locked.........................
ETS, you keep going on and on about retaining the bumper beam and such with our FMIC, which we've responded that the front bumper beam can be retained. I was directed to your site from someone and noticed this under your FMIC descriptions. This is a direct cut and past from your site about the ETS FMIC's:
Quote from ETS's site:
24x11.5x3.0" Bar & Plate Core, 1058cfm-700hp at 79% efficiency (Direct Replacement - Requires Minor Trimming on EVO 8 - See Pictures)
24x11.5x3.5" Bar & Plate Core, 1127cfm-750hp at 80% efficiency (Direct Replacement - Requires Minor Trimming on EVO 8 - See Pictures)
24x11.5x4.0" Bar & Plate Core, 1219cfm-820hp at 81% efficiency (Requires Bumper Beam Trimming)
End Quote.
It appears that each of the FMIC's you offer require some trimming which has been failed to be mentioned. I didn't know it and I am not really posting this to start a pissing match. It just seems it was overlooked and not brought up for some reason.
We do not offer a 3" thick core.
Our 3.5" thick core is rated at 775 hp.
Our 4" thick core is rated at 1150 hp.
Our 4.5" thick core is rated at 1300 hp.
Have a great day.
ETS, you keep going on and on about retaining the bumper beam and such with our FMIC, which we've responded that the front bumper beam can be retained. I was directed to your site from someone and noticed this under your FMIC descriptions. This is a direct cut and past from your site about the ETS FMIC's:
Quote from ETS's site:
24x11.5x3.0" Bar & Plate Core, 1058cfm-700hp at 79% efficiency (Direct Replacement - Requires Minor Trimming on EVO 8 - See Pictures)
24x11.5x3.5" Bar & Plate Core, 1127cfm-750hp at 80% efficiency (Direct Replacement - Requires Minor Trimming on EVO 8 - See Pictures)
24x11.5x4.0" Bar & Plate Core, 1219cfm-820hp at 81% efficiency (Requires Bumper Beam Trimming)
End Quote.
It appears that each of the FMIC's you offer require some trimming which has been failed to be mentioned. I didn't know it and I am not really posting this to start a pissing match. It just seems it was overlooked and not brought up for some reason.
We do not offer a 3" thick core.
Our 3.5" thick core is rated at 775 hp.
Our 4" thick core is rated at 1150 hp.
Our 4.5" thick core is rated at 1300 hp.
Have a great day.
Nov 19, 2008, 08:54 AM
#47
Since this was brought up over and over and over in the other thread that was just locked.........................
ETS, you keep going on and on about retaining the bumper beam and such with our FMIC, which we've responded that the front bumper beam can be retained. I was directed to your site from someone and noticed this under your FMIC descriptions. This is a direct cut and past from your site about the ETS FMIC's:
Quote from ETS's site:
24x11.5x3.0" Bar & Plate Core, 1058cfm-700hp at 79% efficiency (Direct Replacement - Requires Minor Trimming on EVO 8 - See Pictures)
24x11.5x3.5" Bar & Plate Core, 1127cfm-750hp at 80% efficiency (Direct Replacement - Requires Minor Trimming on EVO 8 - See Pictures)
24x11.5x4.0" Bar & Plate Core, 1219cfm-820hp at 81% efficiency (Requires Bumper Beam Trimming)
End Quote.
It appears that each of the FMIC's you offer require some trimming which has been failed to be mentioned. I didn't know it and I am not really posting this to start a pissing match. It just seems it was overlooked and not brought up for some reason.
We do not offer a 3" thick core.
Our 3.5" thick core is rated at 775 hp.
Our 4" thick core is rated at 1150 hp.
Our 4.5" thick core is rated at 1300 hp.
Have a great day.
ETS, you keep going on and on about retaining the bumper beam and such with our FMIC, which we've responded that the front bumper beam can be retained. I was directed to your site from someone and noticed this under your FMIC descriptions. This is a direct cut and past from your site about the ETS FMIC's:
Quote from ETS's site:
24x11.5x3.0" Bar & Plate Core, 1058cfm-700hp at 79% efficiency (Direct Replacement - Requires Minor Trimming on EVO 8 - See Pictures)
24x11.5x3.5" Bar & Plate Core, 1127cfm-750hp at 80% efficiency (Direct Replacement - Requires Minor Trimming on EVO 8 - See Pictures)
24x11.5x4.0" Bar & Plate Core, 1219cfm-820hp at 81% efficiency (Requires Bumper Beam Trimming)
End Quote.
It appears that each of the FMIC's you offer require some trimming which has been failed to be mentioned. I didn't know it and I am not really posting this to start a pissing match. It just seems it was overlooked and not brought up for some reason.
We do not offer a 3" thick core.
Our 3.5" thick core is rated at 775 hp.
Our 4" thick core is rated at 1150 hp.
Our 4.5" thick core is rated at 1300 hp.
Have a great day.
Even though our cores can support similar HP we rate them by efficiency rather then max hp. Thanks!
Michael
Nov 19, 2008, 09:15 AM
#49
Edit: For measurement
This is the same core we use as a substitute for our 4.0" thick when a Garrett Core is requested.
Garrett Part Number: 486827-6002
Length: 23.7"
Height: 12.0"
Thickness: 3.8"
HP Rating: 1000hp
Type: BP (Bar and Plate)
ETS 4.0" Thick Intercooler w/ Garrett Core - $699.00 + Shipping
Thanks,
Michael
Last edited by ETS Michael; Nov 19, 2008 at 09:33 AM.
Nov 19, 2008, 10:48 AM
#50
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Just out of curiousity, I was wondering how you guys come up with efficiency rating? More specifically, what factor's are used to determine this # / %.
David, if you would like to jump in and address this your 2 cents are very welcome.
Thank you guys in advance for taking the time to address my newbie question, just trying to expand my knowledge and learn a thing or two while I'm here!
Jed
Nov 20, 2008, 02:25 PM
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Proof is in the pudding straight up. Check out Al's Dynoflash channel for the FMIC test he did with Sumans Evo. He tested Brand "X" vs the Buschur Race core...needless to say the Buschur Race held the AIT's down considerably over the ETS fmic 
Straight up testing and results is exactly why I went from purchasing ETS products to having a fully outfitted Buschur Evo. 9.0 @ 159 in a full street car are all the facts needed!!
Straight up testing and results is exactly why I went from purchasing ETS products to having a fully outfitted Buschur Evo. 9.0 @ 159 in a full street car are all the facts needed!!
Nov 20, 2008, 04:04 PM
#55
I have test data, lots of it already. As I've said numerous times in this thread, anyone interested head over to our site (link in my signature) and read the testing, it's in Engine/Turbo/Drivetrain in the EVO section.
I have logs from road racing too if anyone is interested in numbers from that.
This is a quote from ETS's site, hope you don't mind I pulled it off your site. This is in their intercooler tech section. This paragraph is regarding their thoughts and testing of the Garrett cores:
QUOTE FROM ETS's SITE:
Garrett B&P: The garrett bar and plate units were tested, but caused overheating in the Rx7 and the DSM, as they did not get enough air to the Radiator. Even though they performed very well in the efficiency and back pressure tests, we felt that if the engine couldn't stay cool, that you car would not be on the road too long. For this reason we only used this core for special requests.
END QUOTE
Here's the way I see it. EVO's absolutely do not have overheating problems. DSM's, yes they sure did and you had to be careful what you did on those cars. We offer our 4" race core for the 1G and 2G DSM's though and I have had no reported problems of overheating on those cars. I do admit the DSM's for sure will overheat and maybe the reason we don't have problems reported anymore is most of the guys using our cores do highway driving and racing, no stop and go traffic anymore. I don't know. The FACT is though, the EVO's do not have the overheating problems the DSM's did.
The Garrett cores are no doubt not the cheapest intercooler cores available. I personally do not care. They have proven to me to be the best and we buy them in high quantities to try to keep the cost down. We also fab our own tanks, hangers and do all of our welding, pressure checking in house.
Just additional input.
BTW, thanks Nissan2EVO.
I have logs from road racing too if anyone is interested in numbers from that.
This is a quote from ETS's site, hope you don't mind I pulled it off your site. This is in their intercooler tech section. This paragraph is regarding their thoughts and testing of the Garrett cores:
QUOTE FROM ETS's SITE:
Garrett B&P: The garrett bar and plate units were tested, but caused overheating in the Rx7 and the DSM, as they did not get enough air to the Radiator. Even though they performed very well in the efficiency and back pressure tests, we felt that if the engine couldn't stay cool, that you car would not be on the road too long. For this reason we only used this core for special requests.
END QUOTE
Here's the way I see it. EVO's absolutely do not have overheating problems. DSM's, yes they sure did and you had to be careful what you did on those cars. We offer our 4" race core for the 1G and 2G DSM's though and I have had no reported problems of overheating on those cars. I do admit the DSM's for sure will overheat and maybe the reason we don't have problems reported anymore is most of the guys using our cores do highway driving and racing, no stop and go traffic anymore. I don't know. The FACT is though, the EVO's do not have the overheating problems the DSM's did.
The Garrett cores are no doubt not the cheapest intercooler cores available. I personally do not care. They have proven to me to be the best and we buy them in high quantities to try to keep the cost down. We also fab our own tanks, hangers and do all of our welding, pressure checking in house.
Just additional input.
BTW, thanks Nissan2EVO.
Nov 20, 2008, 06:08 PM
#56
I have test data, lots of it already. As I've said numerous times in this thread, anyone interested head over to our site (link in my signature) and read the testing, it's in Engine/Turbo/Drivetrain in the EVO section.
I have logs from road racing too if anyone is interested in numbers from that.
This is a quote from ETS's site, hope you don't mind I pulled it off your site. This is in their intercooler tech section. This paragraph is regarding their thoughts and testing of the Garrett cores:
QUOTE FROM ETS's SITE:
Garrett B&P: The garrett bar and plate units were tested, but caused overheating in the Rx7 and the DSM, as they did not get enough air to the Radiator. Even though they performed very well in the efficiency and back pressure tests, we felt that if the engine couldn't stay cool, that you car would not be on the road too long. For this reason we only used this core for special requests.
END QUOTE
Here's the way I see it. EVO's absolutely do not have overheating problems. DSM's, yes they sure did and you had to be careful what you did on those cars. We offer our 4" race core for the 1G and 2G DSM's though and I have had no reported problems of overheating on those cars. I do admit the DSM's for sure will overheat and maybe the reason we don't have problems reported anymore is most of the guys using our cores do highway driving and racing, no stop and go traffic anymore. I don't know. The FACT is though, the EVO's do not have the overheating problems the DSM's did.
The Garrett cores are no doubt not the cheapest intercooler cores available. I personally do not care. They have proven to me to be the best and we buy them in high quantities to try to keep the cost down. We also fab our own tanks, hangers and do all of our welding, pressure checking in house.
Just additional input.
BTW, thanks Nissan2EVO.
I have logs from road racing too if anyone is interested in numbers from that.
This is a quote from ETS's site, hope you don't mind I pulled it off your site. This is in their intercooler tech section. This paragraph is regarding their thoughts and testing of the Garrett cores:
QUOTE FROM ETS's SITE:
Garrett B&P: The garrett bar and plate units were tested, but caused overheating in the Rx7 and the DSM, as they did not get enough air to the Radiator. Even though they performed very well in the efficiency and back pressure tests, we felt that if the engine couldn't stay cool, that you car would not be on the road too long. For this reason we only used this core for special requests.
END QUOTE
Here's the way I see it. EVO's absolutely do not have overheating problems. DSM's, yes they sure did and you had to be careful what you did on those cars. We offer our 4" race core for the 1G and 2G DSM's though and I have had no reported problems of overheating on those cars. I do admit the DSM's for sure will overheat and maybe the reason we don't have problems reported anymore is most of the guys using our cores do highway driving and racing, no stop and go traffic anymore. I don't know. The FACT is though, the EVO's do not have the overheating problems the DSM's did.
The Garrett cores are no doubt not the cheapest intercooler cores available. I personally do not care. They have proven to me to be the best and we buy them in high quantities to try to keep the cost down. We also fab our own tanks, hangers and do all of our welding, pressure checking in house.
Just additional input.
BTW, thanks Nissan2EVO.
We know your intercoolers perform. You can tell by your proven track record. Our target audience is not the guys building a full drag car, but more of the road race / street drivers. The core we use is not as dense as the Garrett core and allows more air to flow to the radiator then the garrett core. We had our core designed this way with the street driver in mind. We do use the Garrett core when requested by the customer. We do recommend using the Garrett or a dense core for a track only vehicle.
The ETS 4.0" intercooler has been used on several fast cars. Paul Nelson ran a 9 sec pass in full street trim w/ NHRA safety equipment making over 700hp.
Paul Nelson 9 sec EVO - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcVsH3UNeIQ
Jeff Bush also ran a 9 (This was Jeff's first year racing) and his 1G made 820whp at a mild boost setting through our intercooler.
Jeff's 9 Sec 1G - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRQOOe0OzhQ
There has also been serveral other cars that have ran a 9 sec pass this year with our intercoolers installed.
Here is a quote from RPMSteve in regards to our intercooler, showing that the cores do make power, and that our temps would be very similar.
Originally Posted by RPMSteve
Chris's car was built the same as mine except He had Stock cams, stock intake man, stock TB and stock ignition. He made 521 whp. Same gas as me. His ETS 3.5" cooler went up about 20-25 degrees. Outpeformed the perrin by far.
Dave himself even said that even though Chris's car woulda made a little bit more with a better core, his own deluxe cooler prob would have went up 20-25 degrees as well. So He said ETS's 3.5" performed ok for the size.
Dave himself even said that even though Chris's car woulda made a little bit more with a better core, his own deluxe cooler prob would have went up 20-25 degrees as well. So He said ETS's 3.5" performed ok for the size.
We fab all our ends tanks, hangers, and intercooler components in house. We also have an AWD Dynojet, Mandral bender and welders here as well. Even though we may not be as vocal as you guys, there is a lot of testing and R&D that goes on behind the scene.
Thanks,
Michael
Proof is in the pudding straight up. Check out Al's Dynoflash channel for the FMIC test he did with Sumans Evo. He tested Brand "X" vs the Buschur Race core...needless to say the Buschur Race held the AIT's down considerably over the ETS fmic
Straight up testing and results is exactly why I went from purchasing ETS products to having a fully outfitted Buschur Evo. 9.0 @ 159 in a full street car are all the facts needed!!
Straight up testing and results is exactly why I went from purchasing ETS products to having a fully outfitted Buschur Evo. 9.0 @ 159 in a full street car are all the facts needed!!
The core that was used on Sumans car was a 4.5" Garrett, the same core used in Buschur BFIC. It's odd that it didn't work in Sumans car, but performs very well on Buschur's tests.
We are not here to make enemies, just set the facts straight.
Thanks,
Michael
Last edited by ETS Michael; Nov 20, 2008 at 06:11 PM.
Nov 20, 2008, 06:54 PM
#57
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David,
Does Garrett make different types of intercooler cores? Let me be a little more specific. Are you running a race version of a Garrett line? and ETS running a standard type of intercooler?
Michael,
Are you running the same set up core as Buschur? Or do you have more than one line? I'm a bit confused about the flow being different and the whole Garrett vs Garrett statement.
Do either of you guys have pressure drop data based on stock turbo running (X psi) applications? Or any size turbo applications indicating pressure drop? That would really show how different the you cores really were.
Thanks! Trying to really learn and soak up the technical side of things.
Does Garrett make different types of intercooler cores? Let me be a little more specific. Are you running a race version of a Garrett line? and ETS running a standard type of intercooler?
Michael,
Are you running the same set up core as Buschur? Or do you have more than one line? I'm a bit confused about the flow being different and the whole Garrett vs Garrett statement.
Do either of you guys have pressure drop data based on stock turbo running (X psi) applications? Or any size turbo applications indicating pressure drop? That would really show how different the you cores really were.
Thanks! Trying to really learn and soak up the technical side of things.
Nov 20, 2008, 07:25 PM
#59
David,
Does Garrett make different types of intercooler cores? Let me be a little more specific. Are you running a race version of a Garrett line? and ETS running a standard type of intercooler?
Michael,
Are you running the same set up core as Buschur? Or do you have more than one line? I'm a bit confused about the flow being different and the whole Garrett vs Garrett statement.
Do either of you guys have pressure drop data based on stock turbo running (X psi) applications? Or any size turbo applications indicating pressure drop? That would really show how different the you cores really were.
Thanks! Trying to really learn and soak up the technical side of things.
Does Garrett make different types of intercooler cores? Let me be a little more specific. Are you running a race version of a Garrett line? and ETS running a standard type of intercooler?
Michael,
Are you running the same set up core as Buschur? Or do you have more than one line? I'm a bit confused about the flow being different and the whole Garrett vs Garrett statement.
Do either of you guys have pressure drop data based on stock turbo running (X psi) applications? Or any size turbo applications indicating pressure drop? That would really show how different the you cores really were.
Thanks! Trying to really learn and soak up the technical side of things.
All this is in reference to a video created by AL @ Dynoflash. I'm not sure you were around when this video was put up. The core supplied was called Brand "X" and was portrayed as being our intercooler, when in fact it was a TRUE Garrett 4.5" Intercooler Core. The core was believe to be fake, because the Serial numbers were not engraved into the top of the core. We have received several cores from ATP and Precision Turbo and it's hit or miss if the cores are engraved or not.
There are two types of Garrett core. The air/air and the water/air. The line about the Garrett vs Garrett is the customer wanted a Garrett intercooler core instead of the ETS core. So instead of running our 4" ETS intercooler core, we supplied a 4.5" Garrett intercooler core per the customer request.
We will have full testing done shortly, and results will be posted. I can post statistics, but I would rather put a complete post together for everyone to read.
If you have a little bit of time you should check out the site HowStuffWorks.com, and the TurboByGarrett.com website. They both explain the heat exchanger process in great detail.
You can also read an article we have up on our website, that explains the design of our intercooler core. I know you are only a reseller and not the manufacture, but it's good info to have.
If anything these threads can help educate the users of evolutionm.net. Hopefully this doesn't turn into another vendor bashing thread. We do respect Buschur for what they have accomplished.
Thanks for your time,
Michael
Last edited by ETS Michael; Nov 20, 2008 at 07:27 PM.
Nov 21, 2008, 12:37 AM
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The reasons why I went with ETS -
First off, I am like MOST evo owners, and am not building a full out drag car, and the ETS setup fits me great. It performs great, looks great, and fitment is great.
Another reason why I went with ETS for everything on my car is because of their customer service. I was always treated with respect, even though I did not know everything about everything. They were not rude and were always there to help me with anything.
I got a chance to visit their shop after I got tuned at English Racing (best tuners hands down btw) and while I was at ETS it was a very good experience. Everyone there was so down to earth. I sat in one of their offices and studied for a exam for college while my car was being worked on.
The thing that sold it for me was, even if ETS's products were not as good as others (even though I believe they are, and so do a lot of others) I would still rather do business with them, rather then rude and disrespectful people.
Take my review as you would like, but as I have stated before, it is my person experiences.
First off, I am like MOST evo owners, and am not building a full out drag car, and the ETS setup fits me great. It performs great, looks great, and fitment is great.
Another reason why I went with ETS for everything on my car is because of their customer service. I was always treated with respect, even though I did not know everything about everything. They were not rude and were always there to help me with anything.
I got a chance to visit their shop after I got tuned at English Racing (best tuners hands down btw) and while I was at ETS it was a very good experience. Everyone there was so down to earth. I sat in one of their offices and studied for a exam for college while my car was being worked on.
The thing that sold it for me was, even if ETS's products were not as good as others (even though I believe they are, and so do a lot of others) I would still rather do business with them, rather then rude and disrespectful people.
Take my review as you would like, but as I have stated before, it is my person experiences.