Forced Performance Turbo Reliability
Nov 17, 2008, 10:23 AM
#106
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If that is a concern, I would think that that is an issue better remedied by calling FP rather than making a post in a thread about it.
The first option draws attention to the issue. The second option draws attention to the issue while creating a whole bunch of other needless drama.
The first option draws attention to the issue. The second option draws attention to the issue while creating a whole bunch of other needless drama.
The foremost point of concern here is are we in the UK doing something wrong/too different that is causing these failures to manifest. Are our set ups incorrect for the turbo application, is there some underlying issue that tuners over here are not aware of?
There seems to be very vague information available as to how in this case the FP EVO Green should be set up and run. Something some where along the line seems not quite right and could be causing unnecessary failure of what should be awsome turbos applications.
Andy
Nov 17, 2008, 10:41 AM
#107
as above. are we doing summat wrong. alot of you will read this and think dam. its just a turbo you bolt it on and as long as it is lubricated and cooled as normal and not over boosted. it doesn't get much easier.
well guess what thats how we think but we have had a high rate of failure to the number we have in the uk.
as robert says its hot collar stuff but you would also be very concerned if you had 12 or so turbo's in your country and 5 - 6 have failed yes some will be caused by external influences but its too many.
well guess what thats how we think but we have had a high rate of failure to the number we have in the uk.
as robert says its hot collar stuff but you would also be very concerned if you had 12 or so turbo's in your country and 5 - 6 have failed yes some will be caused by external influences but its too many.
Nov 17, 2008, 11:57 AM
#108
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Looks like a whole bunch of new faces from the UK joining this thread to give us their opinions on intercooler internal aerodynamics and engine failure analysis... Crcain, still want us to believe that you started this thread with no motives? Right....
I remain unconvinced by the assumptions made about the cause of the failure and what happened first. The compressor wheel is shown intact (no fins totally broken off) -- the damage shown was caused when the wheel impacted the housing after the shaft broke. Where are the parts missing to account for all the claimed particles passing through the intercooler? (Which I also find hard to believe, unless you have no fins in your intercooler core) Where are pics of the shaft?
Two pictures of the turbo, which is the topic here, and 20 pictures of your engine, which yield nothing of value for this discussion.
It's more likely that you damaged the motor, which then damaged the turbo by contaminated oil supply, not the other way around.
You continue to speculate about internal bearing damage, and when someone points out the error of your assumptions, you just disavow your last and start another (post #72 compared 84). Now the assumption is "parts of the shaft went down the drain"? Got any pictures of that?
I remain unconvinced by the assumptions made about the cause of the failure and what happened first. The compressor wheel is shown intact (no fins totally broken off) -- the damage shown was caused when the wheel impacted the housing after the shaft broke. Where are the parts missing to account for all the claimed particles passing through the intercooler? (Which I also find hard to believe, unless you have no fins in your intercooler core) Where are pics of the shaft?
Two pictures of the turbo, which is the topic here, and 20 pictures of your engine, which yield nothing of value for this discussion.
It's more likely that you damaged the motor, which then damaged the turbo by contaminated oil supply, not the other way around.
You continue to speculate about internal bearing damage, and when someone points out the error of your assumptions, you just disavow your last and start another (post #72 compared 84). Now the assumption is "parts of the shaft went down the drain"?
Got any pictures of that?
Nov 17, 2008, 12:07 PM
#109
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as above. are we doing summat wrong. alot of you will read this and think dam. its just a turbo you bolt it on and as long as it is lubricated and cooled as normal and not over boosted. it doesn't get much easier.
well guess what thats how we think but we have had a high rate of failure to the number we have in the uk.
as robert says its hot collar stuff but you would also be very concerned if you had 12 or so turbo's in your country and 5 - 6 have failed yes some will be caused by external influences but its too many.
well guess what thats how we think but we have had a high rate of failure to the number we have in the uk.
as robert says its hot collar stuff but you would also be very concerned if you had 12 or so turbo's in your country and 5 - 6 have failed yes some will be caused by external influences but its too many.
I agree with you on your train of thought, but me personally with that train of thought would cause me to look at other things. I am sure Robert doesn't separate out UK bound Turbo's vs. US bound Turbo's. With that said, if you guys are seeing more failures over there, then something else is not right. (ie. meaning, not your cars, maybe how they are shipped there, your distributor, etc..)
Nov 17, 2008, 12:35 PM
#110
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I agree with you on your train of thought, but me personally with that train of thought would cause me to look at other things. I am sure Robert doesn't separate out UK bound Turbo's vs. US bound Turbo's. With that said, if you guys are seeing more failures over there, then something else is not right. (ie. meaning, not your cars, maybe how they are shipped there, your distributor, etc..)
Nov 17, 2008, 01:16 PM
#111
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not a case of new faces more concerned for their motors.if you honestly believe that an intercooler cannot let metalic particles through it then im afraid your misinformed.also please explain the similarity in the failures.FP is now backtracking by saying its now ok to run a standard airbox.if its designed as a direct bolt on why does changing the airbox come into the equation?at no point does FP say running tolerances for these turbos.claiming someone damaged their motor is a bit presumptuous seeing as there are quite a few failures now.
Nov 17, 2008, 02:00 PM
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Then please may i draw your attention to post 67 , post 90 and the airbox part of post 102.
Nov 17, 2008, 03:00 PM
#116
Something looks very funny with the blades in the pictures that were posted. It looks as though something was ingested by the turbo because if you look at the way the fins are bent, not broken off (ie. clean fracture), it makes it seem as though something fell into the intake track and was stopped by the compressor turbine, and just sat there tearing eachother apart.
With the way those fins are bent & broken I would have very serious doubt on this turbo simply "assploding". If you look at where the damage begins on the fins in relation to where the center of the shaft is, it makes a concentric circle. (The shaft is slightly off due to the broken shaft though) Something was ingested, no doubt, and that's probably what ended up in your motor after being run through a 160,000rpm blender.
Hopefully FP can chime in on my thoughts with his experience.
With the way those fins are bent & broken I would have very serious doubt on this turbo simply "assploding". If you look at where the damage begins on the fins in relation to where the center of the shaft is, it makes a concentric circle. (The shaft is slightly off due to the broken shaft though) Something was ingested, no doubt, and that's probably what ended up in your motor after being run through a 160,000rpm blender.
Hopefully FP can chime in on my thoughts with his experience.
I run an HKS 3 layer dry air filter (induction kit), with the stock intake pipe work.
Nothing was loose, and there were no holes in any pipework.
The filter itself was brand new 500 miles ago.
I can't see any way that anything could have been ingested by the turbo, as there is no way for it to get into there.
And there is no remains of anything either.
Robert has said earlier in this thread that my turbo failed due to overspeed, which caused it to explode.
He pointed out via email to me, that this could have been due to an issue with my engine.
Nov 17, 2008, 03:14 PM
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Here is a snippet of info from an e-mail i just recieved from Robert at Fp regardingthe FP Green.
That goes along way to giving a guideline where as before it was just hearsay myth and rumor.
I feel loads better now after reading some official information and can now press on with maximizing the performance and reliability of the FP Green Turbo currently bolted to my car!
+ i doubt we get that kinda customer service from TD in the UK.
There must be a better system in place in the US or simply better companies.
to coin a phrase ... errrm Boost ON!
Hello Andrew,
Thanks for dropping a line.
First off you want to run the 69-5 compressor under about 145krpm, beyond that the compressro outlet temps get hot. On high performance engines this is around 8krpm and about 22psi, 7krpm and 25psi and 6krpm and 30psi. More ariflow can come out fo the compressor, but it will come with a thermal component that you may not be interested in. My numbers assume that one is not also supplying air to a leak in the charge air system, but rather just supplying air only to the cylinders. THe mass flow rate that corresponds to the three operating points I gave is approximately 50lb/min airflow rate. Your engine will move approx the same amount of air at all three of these operating points. Going beyond these operating points will result in higher than recommended shaft speeds, it is your candle so you can decide how hot you want it to burn.
Your mod to the stock air box *should* suffice to keep the inlet restriction problem to a min, you can check this by logging how low your ambient pressure sensor dips under full power and max engine RPM. More than 1-2psi of vacuum in the inlet tube is adding a unwanted and unwlecome load to the compressor and increasing your shaft speed and perhaps less apparently raising your exhaust manifold pressure. Why and I talking aobut exh manifold pressure? Simple maxim to live by, never forget it - "If you cant get it out, you cant get it in" I didnt come up with that, Gene Berg did, one of my personal heros, but I digress. Lowering turbine inlet pressure is the secret to unlocking power and doing more shaft work on the turbo at a lower shaft speed.
feel free to share this info with your buddies, if you do ask them to excuse my typos and poor grammar as I write this with much haste as I try to move thru my inbox thisafternoon.
Best Regards
Robert Young
Thanks for dropping a line.
First off you want to run the 69-5 compressor under about 145krpm, beyond that the compressro outlet temps get hot. On high performance engines this is around 8krpm and about 22psi, 7krpm and 25psi and 6krpm and 30psi. More ariflow can come out fo the compressor, but it will come with a thermal component that you may not be interested in. My numbers assume that one is not also supplying air to a leak in the charge air system, but rather just supplying air only to the cylinders. THe mass flow rate that corresponds to the three operating points I gave is approximately 50lb/min airflow rate. Your engine will move approx the same amount of air at all three of these operating points. Going beyond these operating points will result in higher than recommended shaft speeds, it is your candle so you can decide how hot you want it to burn.
Your mod to the stock air box *should* suffice to keep the inlet restriction problem to a min, you can check this by logging how low your ambient pressure sensor dips under full power and max engine RPM. More than 1-2psi of vacuum in the inlet tube is adding a unwanted and unwlecome load to the compressor and increasing your shaft speed and perhaps less apparently raising your exhaust manifold pressure. Why and I talking aobut exh manifold pressure? Simple maxim to live by, never forget it - "If you cant get it out, you cant get it in" I didnt come up with that, Gene Berg did, one of my personal heros, but I digress. Lowering turbine inlet pressure is the secret to unlocking power and doing more shaft work on the turbo at a lower shaft speed.
feel free to share this info with your buddies, if you do ask them to excuse my typos and poor grammar as I write this with much haste as I try to move thru my inbox thisafternoon.
Best Regards
Robert Young
I feel loads better now after reading some official information and can now press on with maximizing the performance and reliability of the FP Green Turbo currently bolted to my car!
+ i doubt we get that kinda customer service from TD in the UK.
There must be a better system in place in the US or simply better companies.
to coin a phrase ... errrm Boost ON!
Nov 17, 2008, 03:15 PM
#118
I think it is time to breathe some sanity into all this. There is no intention or need to turn customers into enemies of FP. It isnt a problem for us to help people that have turbo failures, we help people all the time. Getting accused of destroying someones engine sort of puts you off a bit however.
I invite anyone with troubles to write me directly so that their issues can be resolved. The UK guy got behind the eight ball, his turbo should have gone to TD in the UK, they handle the support for our turbos there. Thru a somewhat odd set of circumstances Performance Part s Online happened to have a rep in Florida who happend to pickup a turbo from Titan and take it to the UK and sell it to this gentleman. I suppose it was a mistake to get distracted by the fact that we should not have been handling the service on the turbo in the first place, but Performance Part Online in the UK is not an authorized dealer and this started the whole mess off on the wrong foot. When a motor disentegrates, everyone gets hot under the collar, I am sure the engine builder (who is not getting his butt reamed for this somehow) is pointing fingers in all sorts of directions. That turbo blew big and it blew fast. Whatever possibly fell down the drain pipe or came out of the compressor outlet didnt have a whole lot of time to spread thru your oil system like your pictures show. I can't tell you what happened to your engine. I know arguing about how an engine fails is sort of like urinating in a tornado, but I guess if you have to go you have to go right?
I invite anyone with troubles to write me directly so that their issues can be resolved. The UK guy got behind the eight ball, his turbo should have gone to TD in the UK, they handle the support for our turbos there. Thru a somewhat odd set of circumstances Performance Part s Online happened to have a rep in Florida who happend to pickup a turbo from Titan and take it to the UK and sell it to this gentleman. I suppose it was a mistake to get distracted by the fact that we should not have been handling the service on the turbo in the first place, but Performance Part Online in the UK is not an authorized dealer and this started the whole mess off on the wrong foot. When a motor disentegrates, everyone gets hot under the collar, I am sure the engine builder (who is not getting his butt reamed for this somehow) is pointing fingers in all sorts of directions. That turbo blew big and it blew fast. Whatever possibly fell down the drain pipe or came out of the compressor outlet didnt have a whole lot of time to spread thru your oil system like your pictures show. I can't tell you what happened to your engine. I know arguing about how an engine fails is sort of like urinating in a tornado, but I guess if you have to go you have to go right?
I guess that is a fair comment and overview of the situation
Nov 17, 2008, 03:20 PM
#119
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I've been pleased with their support.
I had one of the first batch of HTA 35R's and the anti-surge cover blew off. They fixed it for free with one day turn around.
Then I had the issue with the CHRA and they gave me a decent price on the new CHRA. But after running 41 psi I didn't even ask to get it for free so just paid.
Both those failures had my car down for a long time though since I'm in the Caribbean. Certainly could have done without them.
I had one of the first batch of HTA 35R's and the anti-surge cover blew off. They fixed it for free with one day turn around.
Then I had the issue with the CHRA and they gave me a decent price on the new CHRA. But after running 41 psi I didn't even ask to get it for free so just paid.
Both those failures had my car down for a long time though since I'm in the Caribbean. Certainly could have done without them.
You have a 2.4 thats why you had issues with the hta at 41 psi I assume. You pushing it much harder than a 2.0 would at 41psi.
