Evo8Emperor

iTrader: (12)

Looking to upgrade my valve train soon. I am running HKS 272's intake and exhaust and plan to upgrade them soon also to either kelford's or cosworth's.

Soon that in mind im looking for what what be my best route to go and what i need to make sure is right for my application.

I was reading and CBRD says they run about 85 psi or seat pressure on all there cars if not a little more towards 90psi. Now when I buy springs am I looking for a specific set in that range because I havent seen a description about springs on sites.

Thanks guys not sure if i was clear or not but just tell me what i should be looking for seeing its probably easier.

E7R

Many good option out there,but i went with kigglyracing:

325lb/in and 97lb installed at 1.440", these springs support 0.500" lift

Evo8Emperor

iTrader: (12)

Im still absorbing everything I can here to go about my build right.

So what I need to do is make sure the springs will support my max rpms, lift, and seat pressure ? I know I have been reading a lot about too much spring causing wear on the valve train if all that seat pressure is unneeded.

1NastyMR

iTrader: (102)

kiggly is really good

hytek369

iTrader: (81)

another vote for kiggly

DRAG

iTrader: (3)

Bear with me here...I'm going to go a little beyond voting for my favorite team and I will get off track a little. Saying that too much spring pressure causes wear on the valve train is a blanket statement that is tossed around the internet a lot amongst people who have done nothing more than read it from someone else who said it on the internet. It isn't always true and it depends on the application.

Every time your valve closes, it bounces on the seat regardless of what spring you have. A spring that is too soft (I'm not talking so soft that you are floating valves) will have excessive bouncing and valve movement and can wear heavily on seats and valves. It can also chew up valve stems and fatigue the spring. You may have a spring that will not coil bind anywhere close to your cam's lift and it may appear that you have enough pressure, but you can still have out of control valve train.

As far as having a spring that is too stiff...yeah it is possible and it can be rough on valves and seats, but with these simple valve jobs that people are putting on EVO heads that is not really an issue. Where it is more of an issue is in the cheap cam cores that people are using. A very stiff spring can cause the cam to deflect. If you have a .420 lift cam and you have .010 of deflection on one portion of the camshaft, you lose that lift. It is inconsistent and that cam movement is not good. A billet core will not have this issue so much, but if you are buying $400 cams...you aren't getting billet cores.

Here is where I go off track We have been told over and over to run the lightest spring possible and basically that for every 10lbs we drop in spring pressure, we would pick up 2hp. Well...380hp, 1725lb car; if I can drop 40lbs and pick up 8hp that is a big deal. So we tested this 65lb, 80lb, 95lb, 110lb....we tested them all and on anything under 90 we were wearing valves out in 10 1/4 passes! There was distinct wear on certain valve train components that someone like me, or any other regular guy might not pick up on at first glance. So we decided to take what I call a Reher-Morrison approach and now run a spring that is 130lbs on the seat and I now have minimal maintenance. The broken aluminum rockers that everyone is experiencing is resolved, no valve wear, and we picked up power simply by controlling the valvetrain. I have had the same set for 70 passes, no issue. It is an $800 spring, but it has saved a lot of time and money elsewhere. DLC coated valve tips and other things have helped as well. Point being...if someone gives you an example of too much spring pressure causing excessive wear, someone can show you other cases where the opposite occured.

For an EVO example, I installed some standard shelf $300 brand xxxxxx springs and retainers to be used in my VIII with Comp 272s and 100-175 shot of nitrous. After 2K miles and 9 1/4 passes they had lost 10lbs of pressure. This is a name brand spring that TONS of people use here, and I ruined it in half an oil change. How many of you are taking your springs out after 2K miles and checking for fatigue? Not many, if any. Springs are a consumable just like your clutch, and not many treat them that way. Paying a little extra for a good spring that won't fatigue can go a long way. Also, I have installed a lot of EVO springs (and others) that fit loose on the seat, the retainers fit loose, and they are just downright sloppy. This is a no no. I will tell you that for fitment and fatigue, you can't go wrong with Ferrea and PSI. If you want to see a similar application to the EVO, try to learn about the GM Ecotec drag race program. They run a low lift, high duration cam with a very serious spring all in an effort to have control over the valve train.

I suggest to anyone interested in engines to buy the Reher-Morrison book and read through it. The answers aren't in there, but it will get your gears going in the right direction. Engines are engines and "experts" label themselves so. http://www.rehermorrison.com/items/engineBooks.htm

Enlightened trial and error wins over planning of flawless intellect

Evo8Emperor

iTrader: (12)

All I said was that I heard it, I didnt say I agree with them just wondering where everyone stands on that subject. (sarcasm)

As for your post it makes much more sense like you stated to maintain control on your valve it is better to have that extra seat pressure to make sure you have your valves shut completely and securely in there seat.

As for your recommendation you prefer ferrea valves,retainers, and sprinds along with this PSI company which I have not heard of before.

HeadGames

iTrader: (2)

totally agree with ya DRAG...if your going to be off, you would rather have a tighter spring or should I say, more spring pressure then less.

I think it's possible that you could get excessive spring pressure, but with what is available on the shelf and popular, most would have a real hard time getting there.

Evo8Emperor, you probably haven't heard of PSI because they are more of a higher end spring. ALOT of the top drag teams switched to them, we used them in the Honda's, and Toyota's..If I remember they are $48 a spring or more? It's been awhile. They are the straight up baddest spring you can buy, but to much for a street car. In the race cars, where big cams are the norm, we were going through a LOT of springs until PSI came around. Ferrea carries them, but just like some of the exotic materials we have used in some of our custom valves with them..you have to know what to ask for.

My vote is Ferrea, not just because you have a variety to choose from in springs, and valves..but they also sell a valve lock(keeper) with there retainer. Although it does not occur as much with the 6.5mm stem, we have seen to many valves pull through the retainer and destroyed cylinder heads with spring packages using the stock stamped steel lock to trust it.

Evo8Emperor

iTrader: (12)

Im glad I was looking at ferrea in the first place. Im wondering which type of valve to choose whether iconel, super alloy, and there other metal choices. When I get the valves in should I bench test them to see how much seat pressure they are and then shim accordingly ?

i would much rather follow what DRAG and you, HeadGames are saying seeing it comes from experienced people rather than people sitting on there *** giving bad information. Which of course does not mean everyone.

Seeing for one thing that DRAG said he has experimented himself it what seems to be a very easy way to get a conclusion rather that sitting on your *** reading what people think they know.

As to this book what does it talk about ? Im currently going to school to be a technician. I went in already knowing a lot on my own so Im curious about this book. I havent learned anything from a book yet just doing all the work and learning.

HeadGames

iTrader: (2)

no matter what valve you choose, it's going to be Inconel..that is just a term used for a material produced to withstand heat. Some are made with more nickle or numbium to withstand more heat then the other. If your choosing Ferrea, we use there 6000 series in everything up to 700whp and the comp plus above that. And there beehive works awesome!

Evo8Emperor

iTrader: (12)

Ahh ha thank you very much. No shimming required with there springs ? With the head off is replacing the valves, seats, and retainers enough or should I do more along the lines of guides, resurfacing the seats. I want to make sure if Im going to install all new components that they have the best chance of operating safely and reliably.

fugiwara

iTrader: (124)

beehive is the way to go in today's market, I've read it and talk to shop about it.

E7R

Whats your words about their titanium valves? thx in advance.

HeadGames

iTrader: (2)

You usually don't have to shim it. And I can't really answer the rest of that, depends on your wallet. If it were mine, I would do guides and do a valve job...if the head gets rebuilt by someone good, you could gain a little HP from the valve job.

If you have enough dough, at $130 a valve the last I checked and willing to change them out often because they don't have a lot of life...and don't forget changing the seats to amco 45 or copper berylium you'll be into it well above $1500 to just put that valve in there. And, considering no one in sport compact
racing that I know of that uses them...don't see the use.

AWD Motorsports

iTrader: (211)

I always run Ferrea in my personal heads.. I have great luck with them at 10k rpm and 1000whp so no reason for me to change it.. Kiggly i am told work very well also for high HP setups but i have never used them.. As headgames mentioned the upgraded keepers that come with ferrea valvetrain is also added peace of mind.. Afterall thats what hold the valve from dropping..