BBK Full/E85 vs FP_GREEN/C16.. FACTS!
Jan 18, 2009, 03:44 PM
#182
Youe posts on EvoM have been those of a straight shooter. I know your company and Blouch are separate companies altogether, and you buy turbos from Blouch.
The reason I asked whether Blouch supplied the BBK to you is that there is a thread on SRTForums comparing a FP Green to a Blouch Turbo product. In that thread (November, 2008) Blouch Turbo employees confirm that Blouch acquired an Forced Performance 47lb compressor wheel from a Green, had it copied, and then sold it in Blouch turbos.
Here's the post in which the Blouch employee identifies himself:
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f169...ml#post6682455
Then here's the posts where Blouch's copying of the FP wheel is discussed:
(post 134) http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f169...ml#post6683580
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f169...ml#post6685264
The Blouch employee confirms that Blouch copied the FP compressor wheel here:
(post 160) http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f169...ml#post6686306
and said that they had later made some design changes to the FP wheel (which implied that they were still using it.)
It's disappointing to learn that any reputable company would go and specifically obtain a part that was developed by their competitor, designed with hard work and at substantial cost, with the plan to copy it, and then do so and sell it as their own. It may be legal, but it smells. I'm sure you'd be P.O'd if you had invested the time and cost of developing a product from scratch, only to have someone scan and digitize it, produce it and benefit from your hard design efforts for free.
I've not personally had the chance to compare or measure the BBK and the FP Green turbine and compressor wheels. The compressor wheel in the BBK looks very similar to FP's compressor wheel in the Green, which has been sold for a number of years. Both compressor wheels both five blades; they are both very similar in size; and they both flow 47-49 lbs/minute.
So, it's fair to ask, given the above information from Blouch itself -- did Blouch or CBRD used a FP Green compressor wheel in any way in coming up with the compressor wheel design used in the BBK?
Jan 18, 2009, 04:22 PM
#183
CB,
Youe posts on EvoM have been those of a straight shooter. I know your company and Blouch are separate companies altogether, and you buy turbos from Blouch.
The reason I asked whether Blouch supplied the BBK to you is that there is a thread on SRTForums comparing a FP Green to a Blouch Turbo product. In that thread (November, 2008) Blouch Turbo employees confirm that Blouch acquired an Forced Performance 47lb compressor wheel from a Green, had it copied, and then sold it in Blouch turbos.
Here's the post in which the Blouch employee identifies himself:
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f169...ml#post6682455
Then here's the posts where Blouch's copying of the FP wheel is discussed:
(post 134) http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f169...ml#post6683580
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f169...ml#post6685264
The Blouch employee confirms that Blouch copied the FP compressor wheel here:
(post 160) http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f169...ml#post6686306
and said that they had later made some design changes to the FP wheel (which implied that they were still using it.)
It's disappointing to learn that any reputable company would go and specifically obtain a part that was developed by their competitor, designed with hard work and at substantial cost, with the plan to copy it, and then do so and sell it as their own. It may be legal, but it smells. I'm sure you'd be P.O'd if you had invested the time and cost of developing a product from scratch, only to have someone scan and digitize it, produce it and benefit from your hard design efforts for free.
I've not personally had the chance to compare or measure the BBK and the FP Green turbine and compressor wheels. The compressor wheel in the BBK looks very similar to FP's compressor wheel in the Green, which has been sold for a number of years. Both compressor wheels both five blades; they are both very similar in size; and they both flow 47-49 lbs/minute.
So, it's fair to ask, given the above information from Blouch itself -- did Blouch or CBRD used a FP Green compressor wheel in any way in coming up with the compressor wheel design used in the BBK?
Youe posts on EvoM have been those of a straight shooter. I know your company and Blouch are separate companies altogether, and you buy turbos from Blouch.
The reason I asked whether Blouch supplied the BBK to you is that there is a thread on SRTForums comparing a FP Green to a Blouch Turbo product. In that thread (November, 2008) Blouch Turbo employees confirm that Blouch acquired an Forced Performance 47lb compressor wheel from a Green, had it copied, and then sold it in Blouch turbos.
Here's the post in which the Blouch employee identifies himself:
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f169...ml#post6682455
Then here's the posts where Blouch's copying of the FP wheel is discussed:
(post 134) http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f169...ml#post6683580
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f169...ml#post6685264
The Blouch employee confirms that Blouch copied the FP compressor wheel here:
(post 160) http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f169...ml#post6686306
and said that they had later made some design changes to the FP wheel (which implied that they were still using it.)
It's disappointing to learn that any reputable company would go and specifically obtain a part that was developed by their competitor, designed with hard work and at substantial cost, with the plan to copy it, and then do so and sell it as their own. It may be legal, but it smells. I'm sure you'd be P.O'd if you had invested the time and cost of developing a product from scratch, only to have someone scan and digitize it, produce it and benefit from your hard design efforts for free.
I've not personally had the chance to compare or measure the BBK and the FP Green turbine and compressor wheels. The compressor wheel in the BBK looks very similar to FP's compressor wheel in the Green, which has been sold for a number of years. Both compressor wheels both five blades; they are both very similar in size; and they both flow 47-49 lbs/minute.
So, it's fair to ask, given the above information from Blouch itself -- did Blouch or CBRD used a FP Green compressor wheel in any way in coming up with the compressor wheel design used in the BBK?
I also don't know if the "guilt by association" tact is a particularly good one, if you ask me.
Jan 18, 2009, 06:27 PM
#186
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a little OT, but Tom, we would love to have you out for the Turbo race here in PA in May. Blouch and CBRD are putting the event on, and again, would love to have you out for it! Had a great time chatting (albeit a bit short) with you at the Shooutout last year.. would love to continue that this year.
Ok, back on topic...
Ok, back on topic...
Can't wait for this event.
Jan 19, 2009, 04:33 AM
#187
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our 49-50lbs min flow rating is estimated....to properly determine flow rating you need a test cell etc... which garrett is one of the few that has one... we dont....the other things to consider is the efficiency of a design, not just flow.... what brian and others have found is our turbo allows for more timing advance than the others he has tested.... 
cb
cbFurthermore, reductions in exhaust backpressure due to improved turbine wheel design could be directly related to the power producing differences between two similarly sized turbochargers. Among other benefits, reductions in backpressure would result in lowered combustion chamber EGT's due to improved exhaust scavenging, and this might help to explain somewhat the ability to advance the ignition timing which you mentioned above.
As you point out we should keep in mind the overall efficiency of the turbocharger, because overall efficiency is more important than compressor flow values alone. Obviously, in the BBK turbo, the compressor and the turbine work extremely well together. The BBK's compressor must be operating in a relatively high efficiency island on the compressor map at lower shaft speeds. The position of the operating point on the compressor map determines the turbocharger speed. Turbine wheel design and diameter have to be such that turbine efficiency is maximized in this operating range. (Garrett, John Estill, & utahstangs.com)
I am not merely trying to make some vacuous academic point. Although, I guess it is coming across that way. I am, in fact, seriously considering selling my Green and getting a BBK instead. All of my driving is done on 91 octane pumpgas. I have to look at the pumpgas results and guide myself accordingly. Finally, I am just trying to understand why A seems to work better than B in the real world. Have a nice day!
Last edited by sparky; Jan 19, 2009 at 08:24 AM.
Jan 19, 2009, 06:18 AM
#188
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wow CO_VR4......does this guy Josh still work at Blouch?....
cant believe they were open about it like that and didnt even try hiding it..
cant believe they were open about it like that and didnt even try hiding it..
Last edited by Shacochis06; Jan 19, 2009 at 06:27 AM.
Jan 19, 2009, 08:36 AM
#189
in response to a few of the before listed threads ill start here...
to CO VR4:
blouch and FP had their own working relationship (be it good or bad) before we starting working with blouch about 2 years ago.... what information they shared before is not of concern to me...
in regards to the bbk turbo and its similarities to a green.red.or other... of course we studied the competition thoroughly throughout this process of development.... we measured, tested, looked at plots, of course tuned these others and put our heads together.
Also as I stated before, I took the characteristics, dimensions, tolerances, comp maps, etc into account from other garrett turbos, borg warner, etc.....
so plain and simple... did we take apart a green and measure it? certainly, did we measure a red? of course.... is there anything wrong with that? of course not.
the only common denominator in the two turbos is the amount of blades .Other than that, the bore, tip geometry, tp heights etc are all specific to the bbk.....
and the turbine (the other part ofthe equation) is also completely different..... nothing like the FP.....
hope that clarifies..
---------------------------------------------
Sparky-
you bring up some very valid and well plotted points...... and you are very correct..... as far as plotting the comp maps, because without the test cell its had to accurately map it... aside of a choke line.
cb
schacoshis06-
in regards to blouchs employees, i dont really think that is important to this thread, as it had gotten off topic far enough before.
cb
to CO VR4:
blouch and FP had their own working relationship (be it good or bad) before we starting working with blouch about 2 years ago.... what information they shared before is not of concern to me...
in regards to the bbk turbo and its similarities to a green.red.or other... of course we studied the competition thoroughly throughout this process of development.... we measured, tested, looked at plots, of course tuned these others and put our heads together.
Also as I stated before, I took the characteristics, dimensions, tolerances, comp maps, etc into account from other garrett turbos, borg warner, etc.....
so plain and simple... did we take apart a green and measure it? certainly, did we measure a red? of course.... is there anything wrong with that? of course not.
the only common denominator in the two turbos is the amount of blades .Other than that, the bore, tip geometry, tp heights etc are all specific to the bbk.....
and the turbine (the other part ofthe equation) is also completely different..... nothing like the FP.....
hope that clarifies..
---------------------------------------------
Sparky-
you bring up some very valid and well plotted points......
and you are very correct..... as far as plotting the comp maps, because without the test cell its had to accurately map it... aside of a choke line.cb
schacoshis06-
in regards to blouchs employees, i dont really think that is important to this thread, as it had gotten off topic far enough before.
cb
Jan 19, 2009, 09:57 AM
#194
regardless, back on track, we were supposed to be talking about boost control, right tom?
cb