T3 Twin scroll turbo?
Feb 4, 2009, 09:30 AM
#76
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ignorance indeed. In all honesty - if you want to make Full-Race look bad and Shearer look good, this is not the way to do it... You have the audacity to demand that I give you an education - yet in the same breath you tell me im wet behind the ears?
I do in fact have shelves of 3 ringed binders in my office, milk crates full of old documents I no longer reference and even some rare books on the subject. I have read and understand every document in every binder and every book on my shelves. Ill help you get a little more educated, heck ill even fax you some documents to get started but im not gonna spend MY time spoon feeding YOU b/c you're too lazy to do any real research to better yourself or your products.
I do in fact have shelves of 3 ringed binders in my office, milk crates full of old documents I no longer reference and even some rare books on the subject. I have read and understand every document in every binder and every book on my shelves. Ill help you get a little more educated, heck ill even fax you some documents to get started but im not gonna spend MY time spoon feeding YOU b/c you're too lazy to do any real research to better yourself or your products.
I'm not trying to make your company look bad. I acknowledge all over the place that you make a high quality product and send people your way whenever I can't help the customer out and you have a product that you can offer them. Don't go there son.
To be clear, let me reiterate. I am not trying to make your product look bad and I am not trying to make Twin Scroll set-ups look bad. I have a problem with the way you go about advertising/promoting your product. It's BS and I know you have no data to substantiate such claims. Normally I could care less about this kind of stuff. When your Twin Scroll marketing steam engine is starting to play into the calls I receive here at the shop I do have a problem with it and I'm calling you out to prove it, back up your mouth Geoff.
Its not just me either. People all over the place have said similar comments(maybe not as lengthy) and you STILL have not come up with anything to back your claims. Here is another thread as an example...
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=501840
And for those Twin Scroll supporters. I have been producing Twin Scroll manifolds and have felt Twin Scroll has a place in this market since 2005. Geoff here was still to busy bashing TS set-ups, thinking he was going to cast his own undivided turbine housings, and thinking that TS set-ups only belonged on a diesel. Funny how he has become it's biggest endorsement now a days.
If you are going to make the claims of increased spool up, better transient response, and still having the capability of making the same(or more) top end power produce the evidence to substantiate those claims. In doing so you will give away no secrets and only provide yourself and your company with a hell of a foundation of rock solid data to back up your marketing campaign. I see it as a win win situation for you. I don't care about any SAE docs, theories, or anything else from a third party. Actual data that you, your dealers, or customers have produced.
A simple test using the same turbo, same manifold, and two comparably sized divided and open inlet turbine housings. All while logging your standard channels plus some others such as turbine inlet back pressure and turbine shaft speed. You've promised these test results on other forums a couple years ago and still nothing of substance has ever been procured. Why is that?
Feb 4, 2009, 09:31 AM
#77
http://youtube.com/fullracevids
Evodan has been the only one to show his trap speeds, but he wasn't pushing it and his car is currently being built with a 4088r I believe. Why not make one pass Ted, to back up the #'s? Thats the best advertisement FullRace could get, some kick *** trap speeds for the strip to go with the great spool and response for the street and road course. How long has it been without one video or slip? yet we are garanteed it matches the REAL WORLD power of the single scroll, lets see it.
I did get to speak to some Garrett engineers at the PRI show. I asked about the "hype" and why they didn't push it in their product. They said that for most that increased response or spool it was because of the smaller effective A/R with the divider in it...IMO I don't think it's worth the effort. I have been in this car game long enough to see how the veterans showcase product to the newcomers. A good friend of mine told me to wipe my *** with the compressor map and just use the turbo that would support the HP goal.
i see your friends pont about using a turbo to support a HP goal, but you must understand that compressor flow (as indicated on a compmap) is directly related to HP
Geoff - I can see making comparisons to similar cars...but the suby and evo are just too different. I mean our runners are what.....12-15" vs (suby guys help me here) over 4 feet? Now if you were comparing say.....a honda and toyota 4cyl, at least they're both similar set up engines, not a boxer with long headers vs an inline...when I'm ready for my kit, I'll be heading your way. Made that choice years ago. TS + altitude, good match
Feb 4, 2009, 10:30 AM
#79
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Glad to be a future customer Geoff! I'll hit you up a PM in the next few months when I'm getting ready to start figuring out turbos....had some questions about something I didn't see on your web page
Feb 5, 2009, 01:14 PM
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Jul 27, 2009, 12:50 PM
#83
What I gather from this thread was that there are not a lot of T3 twin scroll turbos from garrett, the ones that they offer come with the small AR therefore the turbo will suffer up top. But there are a lot of choices from BW turbos and I should be able to find something with the right AR for my taste.
What about performance is there a difference between T3 and T4 ts? for example if I get both turbos with the same AR but one with a T3 and one with T4 which one will perform better?
TY
Jul 27, 2009, 02:27 PM
#84
The advent of the FP Red makes it seem financially impractical to consider anything within the capability/limitations of a divided T3, unless one has already gone through the trouble and expense to trash the factory setup for an aftermarket turbo.
In short, if you can't get there with an FP Red, the next step would be a divided T4.
In short, if you can't get there with an FP Red, the next step would be a divided T4.
Jul 27, 2009, 02:42 PM
#85
The advent of the FP Red makes it seem financially impractical to consider anything within the capability/limitations of a divided T3, unless one has already gone through the trouble and expense to trash the factory setup for an aftermarket turbo.
In short, if you can't get there with an FP Red, the next step would be a divided T4.
In short, if you can't get there with an FP Red, the next step would be a divided T4.
.IMO is way better to sell my current setup and buy either a single scroll kit or a T3 twin scroll kit, than buying a large stock location turbo. Or my only other choice as far as TS is Full-Race but there are way out of price range right now.
Okay so it seems that the T4 TS is better than a T3 TS
how about a single scroll T4 or T3 VS a T3 TS? both kits can be had at about the same price.
Jul 27, 2009, 02:50 PM
#86
I didn't realize we were speaking about a Subaru.
There's virtually no reason to consider a single T4, ever.
A 2.0L Subaru with TS T3 would be interesting and punchy with a 35R variant, but you'd have to have a 1.06 A/R TS T3 housing, and those can be as rare as the proverbial hen's teeth.
There's virtually no reason to consider a single T4, ever.
A 2.0L Subaru with TS T3 would be interesting and punchy with a 35R variant, but you'd have to have a 1.06 A/R TS T3 housing, and those can be as rare as the proverbial hen's teeth.
Jul 27, 2009, 03:16 PM
#87
Didn't somebody just release a TS kit that uses some of the JDM STI parts?
If the JDM STI uses a TS housing, I wouldn't be surprised if FP could whip up an FP Green or RED in TS flavor for the STI.
Otherwise, hands down the T4 seems to be the way to go just because of the number of different turbos that will bolt up to T4 divided manifolds.
I wish there was a TS housing that didn't come off a dump truck though. Those TS housings are so heavy. TIAL needs to come up with a thin wall stainless Twin Scroll T4 housing... Locationally pinned V-band putting the inlet as 2 D's placed back to back.
If the JDM STI uses a TS housing, I wouldn't be surprised if FP could whip up an FP Green or RED in TS flavor for the STI.
Otherwise, hands down the T4 seems to be the way to go just because of the number of different turbos that will bolt up to T4 divided manifolds.
I wish there was a TS housing that didn't come off a dump truck though. Those TS housings are so heavy. TIAL needs to come up with a thin wall stainless Twin Scroll T4 housing... Locationally pinned V-band putting the inlet as 2 D's placed back to back.
Jul 27, 2009, 03:28 PM
#88
I didn't realize we were speaking about a Subaru.
There's virtually no reason to consider a single T4, ever.
A 2.0L Subaru with TS T3 would be interesting and punchy with a 35R variant, but you'd have to have a 1.06 A/R TS T3 housing, and those can be as rare as the proverbial hen's teeth.
There's virtually no reason to consider a single T4, ever.
A 2.0L Subaru with TS T3 would be interesting and punchy with a 35R variant, but you'd have to have a 1.06 A/R TS T3 housing, and those can be as rare as the proverbial hen's teeth.
Didn't somebody just release a TS kit that uses some of the JDM STI parts?
If the JDM STI uses a TS housing, I wouldn't be surprised if FP could whip up an FP Green or RED in TS flavor for the STI.
Otherwise, hands down the T4 seems to be the way to go just because of the number of different turbos that will bolt up to T4 divided manifolds.
I wish there was a TS housing that didn't come off a dump truck though. Those TS housings are so heavy. TIAL needs to come up with a thin wall stainless Twin Scroll T4 housing... Locationally pinned V-band putting the inlet as 2 D's placed back to back.
If the JDM STI uses a TS housing, I wouldn't be surprised if FP could whip up an FP Green or RED in TS flavor for the STI.
Otherwise, hands down the T4 seems to be the way to go just because of the number of different turbos that will bolt up to T4 divided manifolds.
I wish there was a TS housing that didn't come off a dump truck though. Those TS housings are so heavy. TIAL needs to come up with a thin wall stainless Twin Scroll T4 housing... Locationally pinned V-band putting the inlet as 2 D's placed back to back.
not that I know of
Jul 27, 2009, 04:11 PM
#89
how did i miss this thread? well. i been under the knife with some bad luck the past few months with this car. i get it back this week. fully built. ready to push the limits and get to the track. i changed a lot. actually everything on the car. from tires to drive train to turbo kit to a full built motor new FMIC and more. last time i was at the track was back in 2007 so i got some warming up to do. i am sure the car will be a totally new learning curve as i went from little power to a lot and have not driven it in almost a year. wow. i got 3 days to wait. i will have a thread about it all real soon.
Last edited by EvoDan2004; Jul 27, 2009 at 04:20 PM.
Jul 27, 2009, 08:01 PM
#90
Evolved Member
I seriously compare different engines of similar displacement with similar turbos all the time. I'm sorry if you found this confusing. If this EJ25 cannot withstand more power than ~18psi generates, and that doesn't come until 4300rpm, that already represents lazy spool characteristics and limited power capability for an engine of 2.5L displacement. The purpose of the comparison is to illustrate why improving transient response should be the top priority for the EJ.
The second example is between two similarly 2.0L EVOs, and considers this observation:
It's about 800-900rpm difference in my case.
Now you two can choose to believe whatever it is that makes you feel better at night, but so far, I cannot recall even one instance in this forum whereby a TS user reported anything different than my own first hand observations with TS conversion. Not only does TS work, but it really works. The physics behind why this is the case are not difficult to grasp, and I am all-too-pleased to explain and provide analogies if necessary.
Fixed.
The second example is between two similarly 2.0L EVOs, and considers this observation:
It's about 800-900rpm difference in my case.
Now you two can choose to believe whatever it is that makes you feel better at night, but so far, I cannot recall even one instance in this forum whereby a TS user reported anything different than my own first hand observations with TS conversion. Not only does TS work, but it really works. The physics behind why this is the case are not difficult to grasp, and I am all-too-pleased to explain and provide analogies if necessary.
Fixed.
hey dude, sorry to bring this back..but i'm just making sure I don't want you to spread any more misinformation about subaru's, or the ej257 you speak of. On a well tuned stock motor, a 35r turbo .86 housing can hit full boost at ~3600rpm and i've seen it many times. This was a single scroll setup as well, I don't know why juanmedina has come in here and misrepresented the ej257'd sti's.
Twin scroll really shines on the subaru, but at the same time I do see the twinscroll car's not being the huge hp subies...and same with evo's....so once more people start using their evo's 2.0 liter or 2.3 with twinscroll setups that go for drag racing and set really good passes...there will be more believers
as for now, it's cheaper to go with a single scroll turbo for evo's and go fast. I understand why the twin scroll manifolds are more expensive as they require more man hours to create..but it's what comes stock on your evo's. It's the whole thinking that people don't think
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one is better than the other...a big wide pipe or two pipes..most people think one large pipe is better..it's just fundamentally correct(but the ts guys are telling us it isn't becuase of the pulses and how they can cancel one another if not recieved at the correct time), but for high pressure(more heat), you want a smaller pipe
I love evo's and will build one next, well I want buschur too
but it's not because I wouldn't want to learn, but because he's mastered it. In a couple more years or less the subies will catch up, they are already are starting to run 9 second passes more (only a few 35r stock weight guys have I believe) and it's just the tuning and I think drag race tuning that are lacking...it also seems that mivec and avcs are just as good as on another...a 2.0 liter evo spools a twinscroll 35r at ~4000rpm I believe? and a subie 2.5 liter does it around ~3600rpm on a twinscroll..your the math guru, show me whats up now that you have the correct data to input 
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Last edited by MOREPSiTEHBETT4; Jul 27, 2009 at 08:09 PM.