I am curious to see what happens as well, but to be honest, that seems a bit slow as compared to a 2.3L with a 40R-sized turbo. I'm not sure how these turbos really compared to a more expensive BB CHRA type, but a 40R equipped 2.3 with a .95 A/R TS T4 setup typically sees over 30psi before 4500rpm.

Make sure you go through it with a fine toothed comb such as not to allow a potentially hidden issue compromise the results where spool characteristics are concerned.

 

thanks for the post mitch. this turbo is a bit larger than a 40R, and doing very well so far. we need to pull this little baby .91 off and get the big housing on there! turbine housing is just too small it is behaving like a 40R with .85 a/r - great response for such a large turbo but too much backpressure past 4800rpm

hi ted, thanks for the input. I havent seen any 40Rs hit 30psi before 4500 rpm? we have jake (indub on here) whos 2.4L TS40R hit 30psi at 4750rpm that is the best ive seen so far.

I wanted to compare the car mitch is tuning to the buscher 2.3L w/ FR TS40R kit here: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/6372984-post49.html

Borgwarner 91-79 on a buscher 2.3L and Vivid's Mustang Dyno saw:

200wtq@4000rpm
200whp@4350rpm
300wtq@4700rpm
300whp@4850

Garrett 40R on a buscher 2.3L and iveytune's dynojet saw:

200wtq@3700rpm
200whp@4050rpm
300wtq@4350rpm
300whp@4500rpm

the differencce of 300-350rpm isnt much, and considering that this was done on a mustang and the 40R was on a dynojet that makes the comparison a little closer. good initial #s, im looking forward to turning it up. BTW the bw has larger turbine and compressor wheels than the 4088R its being compared to

i dont know who youve talked to, but there are hundreds of honda guys running these turbos and i have not heard of one single failure, nor has BW?

the BW turbos are quite a bit beefier than their garrett equivalents. im going to make a post to break down the differences in everything from bearing structure to wheel aero, its obviously possible to break any turbo, but its hard to imagine these failing prematurely.

everything we've seen thus far indicates these BW journal bearing turbos are performing as well or in some cases slightly better than the GT ball bearing. the key with these turbos is they need the right turbine housing


what did you "hurt" in the BW turbo? If you speak with the BW engineers they are VERY helpful and would love to hear about this failure. Best of all it is very inexpensive and easy to rebuild the BW turbos if you "hurt" one. Hurt a garrett and you are out a new CHRA

 

I think the disconnect here is we can't compare apples to apples between actual street spool (let's say in 3rd gear) and dyno spool. One of our members with a 2.3L 2G 4G63 with 40R and .95 A/R TS T4 sees his 42psi max at 4200rpm on the street (remember?).

 

Borg Warner Turbo's are fantastic, a quick look at compressor charts would show that they are pretty superior to garretts......

Being that they started making diesel turbos, they are way safer at high pressures... the big BW's are safe with pressure ratios to 5 and 6...

 

Mitch, how about laying the old turbo graph over this turbo at the same boost levels, where you have the car as of now. I'd really like to see it.

I just noticed my other post didn't get posted for some reason.

Thanks for the kind words on the build. I'm sure you will do a great job for V.P. Looking forward to the results.

 

Doesn't sound like they have tuned it at the same boost level yet as the car was on 32 psi to start with on the GT35 and they are probably in the mid 20s still?

Why does everybody compare the ball bearing Garretts to the journal bearing Borg Warrners and then rave about how inexpensive the BW is? You can get a journal bearing GT4294 for like $900, considerably less then the comparable journal bearing BW. The journal bearing GT42 works just as well as the BB GT42...

 

Because some results have shown the non-bb BW to spool just as fast as the expensive Garrett BB...

 

Great thread mitch. could you post the rest of the supporting mods - cams, intake, TB so we can have an idea about what to expect from this motor build? thanks and keep us posted. cant wait to see the graphs.

 

And on a dyno chart, a non-ball bearing GT turbo spools just as fast as a ball bearing GT turbo.

The benefit of a ball bearing CHRA is going to show up on the street/track, but not on a dyno.

If you want to compare Borg Warner to Garrett and bring price into the equation, do it journal bearing vs. journal bearing.

 

Just waiting on this new housing. We decided not to post up any graphs until I can see how this other housing does.

Mod List:
BR2.3
BR Stage 3 head
BR 272's
Ported Stock IM
BR IC - Not sure which one. It is huge lol.




Mitch M

 

you are 100% correct, the journal bearing GT42 works every bit as well as the dual ball bearing GT42R, and at a much lower price. The only evidence ive seen that quantifies ball bearing's benefits is the graph on garrett's FAQ

Compared to any of the 42Rs, the BW has better wheel aero (compressor and turbine) so despite the bearing differences (thin film of oil vs spinning *****) its outperforming both garrett 42s... AND it costs $250-$300 less than the journal bearing and $1100 less than the ball bearing...there is zero doubt about the performance comparison - almost every SFWD drag car that switched from GT42 to BW S400SX is going quicker & faster. take a look at the ET and MPH.

thats correct, we are installing the larger turbine housing (proper size for this 2.3L stroker engine) and will be turning the boost up. At 32 psi it will make for an excellent comparison of a tiny A/R HTA35R vs a Full Race Twinscroll big A/R BorgWarner

hey david, your engines are clearly holding up very well and FMICs working great. thanks for providing us some great engines to test our kits on.

The diesel engines are a lot harder on turbos... if you think what those things go thru compared to our petrol engines, diesel is pretty demanding. Of course petrol has a higher egt, but think about a garbage truck - startup, boost, hot shut off. repeat. 1000x. each day... brutal on chra's.

here is the borgwarner/Airwerks S300SX 83-75 compressor map (the big one) with the garrett gt35R compressor map overlayed on top of it.





agreed

its a buschur 2.3L, stock ported intake manifold, not sure about the specs on cams and head ports, but it seems like its a pretty standard buschur motor with the buschur m&w ignition

 

Cracked the thrust on them, scrubbed the compressor housings etc.. When you blow up 4 in 1 weekend its not exactly inexpensive..

 

Hi Geoff, I know your busy and the days are long, but I thought you should know that you need to correct the comparison map. The surge line on the S300 actually starts after the GT35R surge line by about 5Lbs/min.

Though I agree with you regarding BW, the S200 is the ultimate 550Hp Turbo, the GT3076R has nothing on it.

 

these are the correct mods. it has the buschur race intercooler, only thing missing on the list is the buschur ported throttle body. just want to give a quick thanks to mitch, geoff, and vivid racing for the work thats going into my car, they definitely get a big in my book!

 

thanks for the thumbs up, your car is at full-race on a lift, we just pulled the turbokit off to clean up some loose ends from the install, we'll throw up some pics on friday and should be dynoing fri night/sat morning, ill have mitch explain to you what i found. You are going to be very happy with the result

are you sure?? We have the borgwarner maps in lb/min (Easier to compare than kg/s) and will post them on our website tomorrow.

Regarding the S200, its a nice turbo but i think the S300 is much better suited for 450+whp. Im not a big fan of the 30R anymore

if youre cracking thrust washers you have something seriously wrong with your oiling setup... are you seriously telling me you blew up 4 borgwarner turbos in 1 weekend and its the fault of the turbo? doesnt that tell you something is wrong? if you care to find the actual source of failure, i would be happy to help dissect the turbo or if you take it apart and send pics i can show you what to look for