From HTA35R to Full Race Borg Warner Setup
Feb 4, 2009, 08:42 PM
#77
YES GEOFF CRACKED.. Not blue from heat or oiling issue.. used 2 different oil feeds as that was the inital blame before BW inspected the turbo.. i sent one to be inspected and to no suprised they told me the turbo cannot handle the boost levels.. please explain how at 40psi i made 20+ runs and AS SOON as the turbo saw 50psi good bye.. Wait maybe it was a fluke,, 2nd turbo 38-45psi perfect.. Turned the boost up at the track and 50psi good bye..
Then i was told the back housing was too small and it was the shaft speed and i needed a larger rear housing.. No Problem, switched housing and at 50psi same issue.. Then after discussing with jose at forced inductions he said that was retarded to change housings.. all that changes is how much longer it takes to reach the same shaft speed at 50psi..
Switched to a garret with the same oil feed and wow, lasted the entire season at nopi and dozens of dyno pulls at 50+psi.. I even spoke to a very well known sponsored team and they said " We have a line of them in the trailer.. If they arent sponsoring you id stick to the Garrett".. Better yet i watched a car make runs at nopi all last year with the BW and top of the track smoked like a blown motor.. Funny the backup engine never left the stand and they kept going rounds after " Fixing " the problem.. I rest my case..
Mike
Then i was told the back housing was too small and it was the shaft speed and i needed a larger rear housing.. No Problem, switched housing and at 50psi same issue.. Then after discussing with jose at forced inductions he said that was retarded to change housings.. all that changes is how much longer it takes to reach the same shaft speed at 50psi..
Switched to a garret with the same oil feed and wow, lasted the entire season at nopi and dozens of dyno pulls at 50+psi.. I even spoke to a very well known sponsored team and they said " We have a line of them in the trailer.. If they arent sponsoring you id stick to the Garrett".. Better yet i watched a car make runs at nopi all last year with the BW and top of the track smoked like a blown motor.. Funny the backup engine never left the stand and they kept going rounds after " Fixing " the problem.. I rest my case..
Mike
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Feb 6, 2009, 11:22 AM
#78
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Ok well I have an update, well sort of.
Got everything sorted out and started tuning. I could not finish as the boost controller shot apart and I lost the ball and spring. So I am waiting on a ball and spring ( Big thanks to Nick at BR for getting this to me)
I will have final results and numbers on Monday. I am NOT done tuning this car has a lot more in it. It will be well over 500+ without breaking a sweat I can assure you of that.
This is from the previous setup. Remember the HTA35R had a very small exhaust housing on it so it spooled really fast, but also killed power up top.
This turbo is an 83-75 NOT the 91-79. That will be tested on Monday so more info and data after that is put on and tested.
This 83-75 has a 1.1 hotside. Geoff will have more of these very soon.
From everything I have seen this turbo makes boost 300rpm slower than the HTA. I have 30psi by 4900rpm's which is fantastic.
More info to come on Monday but I thought you all would like to know some initial info.
Thanks for reading,
Mitch Mckee
Got everything sorted out and started tuning. I could not finish as the boost controller shot apart and I lost the ball and spring. So I am waiting on a ball and spring ( Big thanks to Nick at BR for getting this to me
)I will have final results and numbers on Monday. I am NOT done tuning this car has a lot more in it. It will be well over 500+ without breaking a sweat I can assure you of that.
This is from the previous setup. Remember the HTA35R had a very small exhaust housing on it so it spooled really fast, but also killed power up top.
This turbo is an 83-75 NOT the 91-79. That will be tested on Monday so more info and data after that is put on and tested.
This 83-75 has a 1.1 hotside. Geoff will have more of these very soon.
From everything I have seen this turbo makes boost 300rpm slower than the HTA. I have 30psi by 4900rpm's which is fantastic.
More info to come on Monday but I thought you all would like to know some initial info.
Thanks for reading,
Mitch Mckee
Last edited by Magnumpsi; Feb 6, 2009 at 12:41 PM.
Feb 6, 2009, 11:47 AM
#79
cant wait until monday 
the bw has an extra 100 whp & 100wtq from 4700rpm on, and thats with only 2 psi extra. once we get the boost controller working right we can hopefully dyno at the same boost levels
edit: forgot to mention that the 35R and the hta 35 use a 68mm turbine wheel, the bw uses a 75mm turbine wheel. reminds me a little bit of the test we did at Iveytune with the bw vs the 3582r
the bw has an extra 100 whp & 100wtq from 4700rpm on, and thats with only 2 psi extra. once we get the boost controller working right we can hopefully dyno at the same boost levels
edit: forgot to mention that the 35R and the hta 35 use a 68mm turbine wheel, the bw uses a 75mm turbine wheel. reminds me a little bit of the test we did at Iveytune with the bw vs the 3582r
Last edited by Geoff Raicer; Feb 6, 2009 at 11:53 AM.
Feb 6, 2009, 04:45 PM
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Very interesting Geoff... Glad to see the S300's working out on this set-up! I love to see our units out there doing what they're designed to do...
For everyone else here, I'm new to posting on forums (this is the first actually) so excuse my lack of savvy here. As I have time; I, and possibly some other BorgWarner guys will post on here to try and help out with questions about our turbos. Give me some time to read over this thread and I'll see if I can answer some of the outstanding questions... there seem to be several here so if anyone has any they'd like me to address first, let me know.
- Kurt
For everyone else here, I'm new to posting on forums (this is the first actually) so excuse my lack of savvy here. As I have time; I, and possibly some other BorgWarner guys will post on here to try and help out with questions about our turbos. Give me some time to read over this thread and I'll see if I can answer some of the outstanding questions... there seem to be several here so if anyone has any they'd like me to address first, let me know.
- Kurt
Feb 6, 2009, 05:57 PM
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Ok... I see there's some question regarding the compressor map of the turbo Geoff's running and the one shown in our 2007 AirWerks catalog.
Both of you are correct:
1. the map comparison is off a bit... it is very difficult to compare two different maps shown at different scaling but I don't believe the mistake was made intentionally; just again, difficult to do... I'll see what I can do here to help out.
2. The turbo Geoff is using in this test is completely different than the one listed in the catalog. The one being used currently has a ~60mm compressor inducer and smaller S&W (shaft and wheel) compared to the ~61.4mm inducer shown in the catalog. Although the maps are similar in performance, they are not the same: the 60mm test unit has five speed lines and the 61.4mm (aka 62mm) has only four which is abbreviated (not ran to rated speed as the performance the test was performed for did not require running higher speeds). These two S300's have different CC's (compressor covers) and TH's (turbine housings) installed as well as both wheels of course.
3. Do we make new CW's (compressor wheels) just because we can? Not typically... however, there are cases. Neither of these two CW's are "new" actually but the 60mm is a very recent offering to the aftermarket in comparison. For example, the S300 frame has many CW inducer diameters available from ~56mm up to 66mm but only a select few become offered as there's not much sense offering all of the different trims... I'm sure this is true among all the turbo manufactures'.
I am not a salesman and I'm not trying to push propaganda on anyone... just trying to answer questions. I know it's easy to through that card as I do read these threads at times and I see several posts which come off that way. In Geoff's defense, this turbo being brand new to you guys is not propaganda, he's not painting the S300 in the 2007 catalog a different color... their similarities are simply that they're both S300's and similar in compressor flow/pressure ratio capabilities.
Hopefully this info is helpful... I'm not trying to sound condescending by any means, just trying to give as much info as possible for everyone regardless of their expertise.
- Kurt
Both of you are correct:
1. the map comparison is off a bit... it is very difficult to compare two different maps shown at different scaling but I don't believe the mistake was made intentionally; just again, difficult to do... I'll see what I can do here to help out.
2. The turbo Geoff is using in this test is completely different than the one listed in the catalog. The one being used currently has a ~60mm compressor inducer and smaller S&W (shaft and wheel) compared to the ~61.4mm inducer shown in the catalog. Although the maps are similar in performance, they are not the same: the 60mm test unit has five speed lines and the 61.4mm (aka 62mm) has only four which is abbreviated (not ran to rated speed as the performance the test was performed for did not require running higher speeds). These two S300's have different CC's (compressor covers) and TH's (turbine housings) installed as well as both wheels of course.
3. Do we make new CW's (compressor wheels) just because we can? Not typically... however, there are cases. Neither of these two CW's are "new" actually but the 60mm is a very recent offering to the aftermarket in comparison. For example, the S300 frame has many CW inducer diameters available from ~56mm up to 66mm but only a select few become offered as there's not much sense offering all of the different trims... I'm sure this is true among all the turbo manufactures'.
I am not a salesman and I'm not trying to push propaganda on anyone... just trying to answer questions. I know it's easy to through that card as I do read these threads at times and I see several posts which come off that way. In Geoff's defense, this turbo being brand new to you guys is not propaganda, he's not painting the S300 in the 2007 catalog a different color... their similarities are simply that they're both S300's and similar in compressor flow/pressure ratio capabilities.
Hopefully this info is helpful... I'm not trying to sound condescending by any means, just trying to give as much info as possible for everyone regardless of their expertise.
- Kurt
Feb 6, 2009, 07:56 PM
#85
I don't know anything at all about the BW turbo, I have nothing to say about it.
I do have a comment though. The HTA35r's boost was 25, the BW is 27.9 psi, that's 3 psi not 2 psi. The HTA35r is also the sickest disgrace to that turbo I have ever seen. At 27.9 psi of boost I can make 500 whp on 93 octane all day long. I'm am a bit confused with it making the power of an EVO green with a reflash.
I know Mitch can tune so that's not the problem. Obviously something wasn't quite right though.
I went back and read the first post. This is a BR STG 3 stroker and head. In the first post it was stated the turbo made 30 psi at 4200 rpm........that would mean there is a 700 rpm difference in spool up to 30 psi.
I'm not trying to start anything I'm just pointing out that something isn't right with the car, the 3 psi difference in the boost etc. I don't want to see the HTA35r getting bad press when it's a great turbo.
Just my 2 cents.
I do have a comment though. The HTA35r's boost was 25, the BW is 27.9 psi, that's 3 psi not 2 psi. The HTA35r is also the sickest disgrace to that turbo I have ever seen. At 27.9 psi of boost I can make 500 whp on 93 octane all day long. I'm am a bit confused with it making the power of an EVO green with a reflash.
I know Mitch can tune so that's not the problem. Obviously something wasn't quite right though.
I went back and read the first post. This is a BR STG 3 stroker and head. In the first post it was stated the turbo made 30 psi at 4200 rpm........that would mean there is a 700 rpm difference in spool up to 30 psi.
I'm not trying to start anything I'm just pointing out that something isn't right with the car, the 3 psi difference in the boost etc. I don't want to see the HTA35r getting bad press when it's a great turbo.
Just my 2 cents.
Last edited by David Buschur; Feb 6, 2009 at 08:03 PM.
Feb 6, 2009, 08:15 PM
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Ok... I see there's some question regarding the compressor map of the turbo Geoff's running and the one shown in our 2007 AirWerks catalog.
Both of you are correct:
1. the map comparison is off a bit... it is very difficult to compare two different maps shown at different scaling but I don't believe the mistake was made intentionally; just again, difficult to do... I'll see what I can do here to help out.
2. The turbo Geoff is using in this test is completely different than the one listed in the catalog. The one being used currently has a ~60mm compressor inducer and smaller S&W (shaft and wheel) compared to the ~61.4mm inducer shown in the catalog. Although the maps are similar in performance, they are not the same: the 60mm test unit has five speed lines and the 61.4mm (aka 62mm) has only four which is abbreviated (not ran to rated speed as the performance the test was performed for did not require running higher speeds). These two S300's have different CC's (compressor covers) and TH's (turbine housings) installed as well as both wheels of course.
3. Do we make new CW's (compressor wheels) just because we can? Not typically... however, there are cases. Neither of these two CW's are "new" actually but the 60mm is a very recent offering to the aftermarket in comparison. For example, the S300 frame has many CW inducer diameters available from ~56mm up to 66mm but only a select few become offered as there's not much sense offering all of the different trims... I'm sure this is true among all the turbo manufactures'.
I am not a salesman and I'm not trying to push propaganda on anyone... just trying to answer questions. I know it's easy to through that card as I do read these threads at times and I see several posts which come off that way. In Geoff's defense, this turbo being brand new to you guys is not propaganda, he's not painting the S300 in the 2007 catalog a different color... their similarities are simply that they're both S300's and similar in compressor flow/pressure ratio capabilities.
Hopefully this info is helpful... I'm not trying to sound condescending by any means, just trying to give as much info as possible for everyone regardless of their expertise.
- Kurt
Both of you are correct:
1. the map comparison is off a bit... it is very difficult to compare two different maps shown at different scaling but I don't believe the mistake was made intentionally; just again, difficult to do... I'll see what I can do here to help out.
2. The turbo Geoff is using in this test is completely different than the one listed in the catalog. The one being used currently has a ~60mm compressor inducer and smaller S&W (shaft and wheel) compared to the ~61.4mm inducer shown in the catalog. Although the maps are similar in performance, they are not the same: the 60mm test unit has five speed lines and the 61.4mm (aka 62mm) has only four which is abbreviated (not ran to rated speed as the performance the test was performed for did not require running higher speeds). These two S300's have different CC's (compressor covers) and TH's (turbine housings) installed as well as both wheels of course.
3. Do we make new CW's (compressor wheels) just because we can? Not typically... however, there are cases. Neither of these two CW's are "new" actually but the 60mm is a very recent offering to the aftermarket in comparison. For example, the S300 frame has many CW inducer diameters available from ~56mm up to 66mm but only a select few become offered as there's not much sense offering all of the different trims... I'm sure this is true among all the turbo manufactures'.
I am not a salesman and I'm not trying to push propaganda on anyone... just trying to answer questions. I know it's easy to through that card as I do read these threads at times and I see several posts which come off that way. In Geoff's defense, this turbo being brand new to you guys is not propaganda, he's not painting the S300 in the 2007 catalog a different color... their similarities are simply that they're both S300's and similar in compressor flow/pressure ratio capabilities.
Hopefully this info is helpful... I'm not trying to sound condescending by any means, just trying to give as much info as possible for everyone regardless of their expertise.
- Kurt
Feb 7, 2009, 01:21 AM
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So I'm confused. You switched out a good setup.. 580whp on pump/meth. Instead of trying a bigger turbo(hta37r.. Or one of the new bushur/fp turbos) or even just a bigger hotside. You switched to a very expensive setup and so far are spooling slower and making a 100 whp less power?
Feb 7, 2009, 01:41 AM
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I know you're not done tuning as the first BW setup didn't work great(which is why you swapped the hotside) I know mitch is a good tuner as he's tuned my car before. Just confused I guess.
