Tony1

iTrader: (1)

If the injectors were leaking the same in both cars, why would they not react the same? I don't see the logic there.

I know from your end it seems like the majority has the same problem, but the reality is that we sell A LOT of these injectors, for all different makes and models, and the EVO guys with OEM ecus are the only ones with a consistent problem. A few Subaru guys with OEM ecus have reported similar problems. The only thing the two have in common, OEM ecus.

There is A LOT of stuff going on in the factory ecu. I have no idea how much of it you guys have been able to get into, but I suspect that there is still something having to do with startup that is causing this.

The only way I can think of to confirm that is to put an AEM or another standalone ecu on a car with the problem and see if it persists.

94AWDcoupe

iTrader: (125)

If the injectors were leaking the same in both cars, why would they not react the same? I don't see the logic there.

If one car has bigger cams then the next there would be less cranking compression with bigger cams
If one car has a sheet metal intake the fuel might evaporate faster than the one with stock manifold. or visa versa.
mechanical timing could be 2-3 degrees different between two cars from one car shaving his head and block .020 and the other is stock. mechanical timing is not adjustable on a evo. stock ecu would have no way of knowing it moved when head or block was shaved. it assumes its 5 but could easily be 8 or 2 if cam gears are used as well

there's three things I thought of in 15 seconds. I am sure there are twenty more at least. were are not talking about stock cars here. there are a thousand different setups on these cars.

Tony1

iTrader: (1)

5-10 degrees of ignition advance wouldn't have any affect on this.

It seems as though you're convinced that it has to do with a leaking injector. I believe RT Ernie is going to plumb his to an intake manifold not installed on the car tonight and do some testing. His car has issues, so it should be a good test to see if it's due to them leaking.

94AWDcoupe

iTrader: (125)

Thanks for input. with the evo 10 4B11 and speed density ecu it might as well be a honda!

I am sure if I put my old injectors back in my hard start problems would be gone.

94AWDcoupe

iTrader: (125)

no not at all convinced its leaking. just a suggested possibility. its only clear to me this injector has a characteristic that causes hard stating. it hasnt been figured out yet. you seem to be convinced its an ecu issue when it clearly is not. I would think you more than anybody would want to figure out what the issue is. you are the one peddling them

AEM has horrible start issues on 4G63. both cold and hot. that wouldnt be a good test at all.

Tony1

iTrader: (1)

AEM's start issues are not the same as what you guys are dealing with, right? It should be clear if the problem changes with the AEM.

I want to figure this out, but there's only so much I can do not having a car here to test with. I'm offering as much support as I can and as many ideas as I can. Not sure what else you want me to do.

Zeus

iTrader: (66)

Here's a wild card for OEM ECU users... what ROM IDs are having the problems, and which are not? Is there a correlation? Those familiar with the different (newer vs older) ROM IDs know that there have been constant changes from generation to generation.

...and R/TErnie, no worries, and no one "called me in". I'm VERY interested in a solution to this as I personally think if this is ironed out, these could be the end all be all injectors for my customers. Experience tells me (and watching "tone") that if you get too many "smart people" in the same room, sooner or later, someone's panties will get in a bunch. Just heading it off at the pass for a very important topic.

Zeus

iTrader: (66)

Also, to bury the hatchet on you two guys about the ECU... unless there is an actual failure, it's not the ECU's fault, nor the injectors. It's simply a matter of finding the bug in the tune if that's what it is. We HAVE to figure this out if we want to use these injectors as 90% of Evo owners don't nor will give a rats *** about aftermarket engine management for this platform (with ECUflash and the Tephra mods, what regular guy needs it?). However, of course someone who swaps back and forth for emissions testing (some do) could narrow the problem down real quick if they have the start issue.

mrfred

iTrader: (50)

Good to hear from a well known tuner.

mrfred

iTrader: (50)

If the AEM ECU is 100% PnP, I'd be happy to give it a try. However my car has not been having as bad of warm start issues these past couple of months, so it might be better if it went to R/T, Trav, or 94

Trav, R/T, and myself are all using 88590015 or some variant (e.g. tephra v5 8859). dan l, who has had zero warm start issues, is also on 88590015. Trav and dan l even swapped ROMs and ECUs. 94AWD has these in an Evo 4 I believe.

Zeus

iTrader: (66)

So much for that card... at least someone's gone there.

mrfred

iTrader: (50)

Yep, its super frustrating.

R/TErnie

iTrader: (32)

I started tonight out by driving 45 minutes back home from work. I parked the car and waited a random amount of time (52 minutes to be exact) went out and started the car... it did the regular crank-crank-crank-sputter to life start that we're all complaining about. I drove the car down the street and back and parked it in the garage. I wrote down the time that I turned the car off and immediately took temps.

I took temperature measurements every 10 minutes in 7 locations on my car.

The IR gun


The seven locations...shorthand along with a detailed description of exactly where it was on the car.
VC - valve cover on the intake side of the head... I took an average of the passenger/driver sides of the valve cover.
Magnus - I took the measurement just underneath the M on my Magnus logo of my IM.
Rail 1-4 - This is the temperature of the STOCK fuel rail where the injector presses into it.
Injector 1-4 - This is the temperature of the cnc'd fuel adapters that T1/ID sends with the injectors
Head Flange - this is the temp of the headflange on the magnus IM. just on the other side of the phenolic spacer.
FPR - this is the temp of the top of the fuel pressure regulator
Return - this is the temperature of the steel zinc plated return hard line that bolts to the 2 spaced IM fasteners.

Here's a picture of my setup...


All measurements done in Fahrenheit




While using the Infrared gun I noticed that the injector body was 120 where it attached to the IM and about 100-110 where it went into the rail. So the fuel inside the injector was easily 110-120 degrees for the full 52 minutes.

Video of Startup @ 8:23PM (52 min)


I let the car idle until 8:29PM and then I turned it off

Video of Start @ 9:10PM (41 min)


I'm sorry I didn't have time to do the air spray test. I need to remove my strut tower bar and see if my wiring will stretch before I wait 50 minutes only to pop and injector out of the rail and mess the whole thing up! lol. My girlfriend won't be there to help video tape (deathly sick!) so I'll have to see if I can get a roommate to volunteer (volun-told)

I hope to have have the necessary fittings tomorrow for the fuel pressure gauge...

Fast_Freddie

iTrader: (50)

^Eric if not I will be up on Friday

dhammans

iTrader: (3)

I have a set of the ID 1000s from Tony that have been in/out of my car on the stock ECU, running Tephra 5.10. I have yet to try it with the recently released V7 as I've been in Australia.

With a Wilson 2.3+ intake manifold, Garrett IC core, FP 4R cams, stock turbo, MBC @ 26psi, downpipe, resonator, and Greddy Ti-C catback they ran perfectly.

I went to a cone filter briefly and had the warm start issue. Once I swapped back to the factory airbox and a K&N drop-in filter the warm start issue went away. That would suggest that they are picky with the intake piping/MAF setup. I'm going to be installing an FP Black™ (Pink?) Turbo, -044 pump, Weldon regulator, and a Motec M820 in the next week or two so I will be dropping the ID1000's back in. I don't expect the Motec to have any issues controlling these injectors .

I run into this type of problem all the time in my professional life. You have a piece of hardware/software which works fine with another piece of hardware/software. However, when you change one of the components the expectations on each other change. Given that the injector is a static item and is not particularly configurable other than perhaps fuel pressure, it is logical to blame the ECU. There are many unknown tables in the stock ECU and it is likely that there are some shenanigans happening causing an issue with these injectors. As so many tooners on this board are quick to point out, every car is different and results may vary. This is generally said in the context of a disclaimer in case they don't get the power you want out of your setup, but they can't have their cake and eat it too.

With so many intelligent people looking at the 'issue' I would suspect there will be a breakthrough fairly soon.