twinscroll/singlescroll TURBO SHOOTOUT -- full-race / VE engineering / vivids dyno
Feb 9, 2009, 10:45 AM
#1
twinscroll/singlescroll TURBO SHOOTOUT -- full-race / VE engineering / vivids dyno
update 4/23 -- mitch emailed me the latest comparison -- twinscroll 40R 1.06 a/r (solid line) vs singlescroll hta35 .82 a/r (dotted line)
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here is the dynoplot of the .82 a/r T3 singlescroll hta35.
the logs are here:
http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/...t/htatest1.stf
http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/...t/htatest2.stf
http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/...t/htatest3.stf
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______
here is the dynoplot of the .82 a/r T3 singlescroll hta35.
the logs are here:
http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/...t/htatest1.stf
http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/...t/htatest2.stf
http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/...t/htatest3.stf
Last edited by Geoff Raicer; Apr 23, 2009 at 04:30 PM.
Feb 9, 2009, 10:45 AM
#2
the purpose of this thread is to test as many setups as possible, in the window of time that we have available. This particular car is an ideal test bed becuase it is a simple but high performance setup that is common to a lot of evo owners. Mitch McKee from VE engineering is handling the tuning on vivid's mustang dyno (after hours) and fuel used will be 91 octane + methanol. boost will be set ~31 psi. The top post will be saved for the latest test results as we post them up
background on the car: This is an Evo 8 and it was built by Dave B in Ohio. The customer lives in New Mexico so Mitch has been helping him tune. The set up was a BR 2.3 with BR Stage 3 head HTA 35R and supporting mods. The car made ~580 on a dyno jet at 32psi on 91octane Pump+ Meth. The car is put together VERY well and no doubt another fantastic build from Dave. The only changes are to the turbo and turbokit. For this test the setup is staying mostly the same, using the same BR 2.3L engine (no changes or adjustments) and BR FMIC w/ BR 2.5" stainless steel charge piping. stock ported intake manifold and tb. stock cam gears (i prefer adjustables but the customer didnt want them). Mitch's day job keeps him very busy so his time to tune these cars is limited. We here at full-race will handle all the mechanical and turbo swaps, mitch will bring the car back and forth to the dyno and tune them as he gets time.
So far, the turbos we have to test are (i will edit this list as turbos get added, listed in the order we plan to test)
1. Borgwarner Airwerks S300SX 83-75 1.10 A/R twin scroll (~hta35R+ size)
2. HTA-3582R in .82 single scroll t3 housing
3. Borgwarner Airwerks S300SX 91-79 1.10 A/R twin scroll (~4088R+ size)
4. GT4088R t4 1.06 twin scroll housing
we will not dyno any of the precision turbos, do not want to dyno someones turbo have it come apart during testing and have to buy them a new one. all the others are known good units, or I own them so im not worried about using them.
PLEASE READ: This thread is meant purely to be educational. I dont have all the time in the world, but I am free for most of this week and a customer is kind enough to lend us his 2.3L buschur built evo. This test is not all encompassing but we will log backpressure and intake manifold pressure and it will be done on an unbiased mustang dyno @ vivid.
I welcome everyone who loves twinscroll, everyone who is on the fence about it, and everyone who hates it. I would love to hear input from dave buschur, robert young from FP, martin or eric from AMS, all of you guys who are doing your thing to keep the industry going. Ron shearer, we already know what you think
KEEP THE POSTS PROFESSIONAL - TRY HARD NOT TO CLUTTER THANK YOU
2/6:
(dotted line) Old Setup: Singlescroll HTA35R dual ball bearing using small A/R dsm housing @ ~24psi
(solid line) New Setup: Twinscroll T4 borgwarner airwerks 83-75 large 1.10 A/R journal bearing @ ~27psi<--
Update Tues 2/10 -- spent today getting everything ready for the test. We're trying to do as many turbo swaps in as short a time period as possible, so i got the manifolds sorted and some small stuff to tend to tomorrow (EBP bung and sensor wiring). We want to try and do a T4 test, followed by a T3 test, followed by a T4 test, t3 test, etc. This way we can reduce the time spent swapping parts. will probably do a lot of t4 at the end tho
pic of the car as i was putting it together last week:
Here are some pics of the almost-identical manifolds we will use for the test. The only difference is one has a T3 flange/collector, the other has a T4 flange/collector. They have identical runner dimensions, identical runner geometry, identical welds, identical wastegate configuration, identical head flange. T3 will be used to test the singlescroll turbos, T4 will test the twinscroll turbos obviously. LEFT: T3 manifold and hta + 35R housings, RIGHT: T4 manifold and borgwarner turbo/housings
T3 manifold and T4 manifold next to each other
T3 .82 a/r Garrett singlescroll turbine housing -- will be tested on GT3582R and hta35R as the singlescroll competition. ***NOTE - i modified the vband outlet to have the same offset as the T4 turbos, allowing us to use the same free flowing twinscroll downpipe. If we used the standard T3-GT vband housing this downpipe would not clear the AC compressor***
T4 1.06 a/r Garrett twinscroll turbine housing -- will be tested on GT3582R and hta35R
T4 1.10 a/r BW Airwerks twinscroll turbine housing -- will be tested on BW 83-75 and 91-79
pic of the setra EBP sensor we will be using (ill take a new pic when its on the evo):
update weds 2/11 -- car came in today with the borgwarner 83-75 looking like this:
We pulled the borgwarner 83-75 off, to install the T3 HTA35R in .82 a/r singlescroll housing. pictured below
here is a pic installed, ready to go to the dyno first thing tomorrow morning. the backpressure sensor is not pictured because the hood wont close with it in place
background on the car: This is an Evo 8 and it was built by Dave B in Ohio. The customer lives in New Mexico so Mitch has been helping him tune. The set up was a BR 2.3 with BR Stage 3 head HTA 35R and supporting mods. The car made ~580 on a dyno jet at 32psi on 91octane Pump+ Meth. The car is put together VERY well and no doubt another fantastic build from Dave. The only changes are to the turbo and turbokit. For this test the setup is staying mostly the same, using the same BR 2.3L engine (no changes or adjustments) and BR FMIC w/ BR 2.5" stainless steel charge piping. stock ported intake manifold and tb. stock cam gears (i prefer adjustables but the customer didnt want them). Mitch's day job keeps him very busy so his time to tune these cars is limited. We here at full-race will handle all the mechanical and turbo swaps, mitch will bring the car back and forth to the dyno and tune them as he gets time.
So far, the turbos we have to test are (i will edit this list as turbos get added, listed in the order we plan to test)
1. Borgwarner Airwerks S300SX 83-75 1.10 A/R twin scroll (~hta35R+ size)
2. HTA-3582R in .82 single scroll t3 housing
3. Borgwarner Airwerks S300SX 91-79 1.10 A/R twin scroll (~4088R+ size)
4. GT4088R t4 1.06 twin scroll housing
we will not dyno any of the precision turbos, do not want to dyno someones turbo have it come apart during testing and have to buy them a new one. all the others are known good units, or I own them so im not worried about using them.
PLEASE READ: This thread is meant purely to be educational. I dont have all the time in the world, but I am free for most of this week and a customer is kind enough to lend us his 2.3L buschur built evo. This test is not all encompassing but we will log backpressure and intake manifold pressure and it will be done on an unbiased mustang dyno @ vivid.
I welcome everyone who loves twinscroll, everyone who is on the fence about it, and everyone who hates it. I would love to hear input from dave buschur, robert young from FP, martin or eric from AMS, all of you guys who are doing your thing to keep the industry going. Ron shearer, we already know what you think
KEEP THE POSTS PROFESSIONAL - TRY HARD NOT TO CLUTTER THANK YOU
2/6:
(dotted line) Old Setup: Singlescroll HTA35R dual ball bearing using small A/R dsm housing @ ~24psi
(solid line) New Setup: Twinscroll T4 borgwarner airwerks 83-75 large 1.10 A/R journal bearing @ ~27psi<--
Update Tues 2/10 -- spent today getting everything ready for the test. We're trying to do as many turbo swaps in as short a time period as possible, so i got the manifolds sorted and some small stuff to tend to tomorrow (EBP bung and sensor wiring). We want to try and do a T4 test, followed by a T3 test, followed by a T4 test, t3 test, etc. This way we can reduce the time spent swapping parts. will probably do a lot of t4 at the end tho
pic of the car as i was putting it together last week:
Here are some pics of the almost-identical manifolds we will use for the test. The only difference is one has a T3 flange/collector, the other has a T4 flange/collector. They have identical runner dimensions, identical runner geometry, identical welds, identical wastegate configuration, identical head flange. T3 will be used to test the singlescroll turbos, T4 will test the twinscroll turbos obviously. LEFT: T3 manifold and hta + 35R housings, RIGHT: T4 manifold and borgwarner turbo/housings
T3 manifold and T4 manifold next to each other
T3 .82 a/r Garrett singlescroll turbine housing -- will be tested on GT3582R and hta35R as the singlescroll competition. ***NOTE - i modified the vband outlet to have the same offset as the T4 turbos, allowing us to use the same free flowing twinscroll downpipe. If we used the standard T3-GT vband housing this downpipe would not clear the AC compressor***
T4 1.06 a/r Garrett twinscroll turbine housing -- will be tested on GT3582R and hta35R
T4 1.10 a/r BW Airwerks twinscroll turbine housing -- will be tested on BW 83-75 and 91-79
pic of the setra EBP sensor we will be using (ill take a new pic when its on the evo):
update weds 2/11 -- car came in today with the borgwarner 83-75 looking like this:
We pulled the borgwarner 83-75 off, to install the T3 HTA35R in .82 a/r singlescroll housing. pictured below
here is a pic installed, ready to go to the dyno first thing tomorrow morning. the backpressure sensor is not pictured because the hood wont close with it in place
Last edited by Geoff Raicer; Mar 27, 2009 at 04:26 PM.
Feb 9, 2009, 11:58 AM
#6
the purpose of this thread is to test as many setups as possible, in the window of time that we have available. The car is an ideal test bed becuase it is a simple but high performance setup that is common to a lot of evo owners. Mitch McKee from VE engineering is handling the tuning on vivid's mustang dyno and fuel used will be 91 octane + methanol. boost will be set ~31 psi. The top post will be saved for the latest test results as we post them up
background on the car: This is an Evo 8 and it was built by Dave B in Ohio. The customer lives in New Mexico so Mitch has been helping him tune. The set up was a BR 2.3 with BR Stage 3 head HTA 35R and supporting mods. The car made ~580 on a dyno jet at 32psi on 91octane Pump+ Meth. The car is put together VERY well and no doubt another fantastic build from Dave. The only changes are to the turbo and turbokit. It uses the same BR 2.3L engine (no changes or adjustments) and BR FMIC w/ BR 2.5" stainless steel charge piping. stock ported intake manifold and tb. stock cam gears (i prefer adjustables but the customer didnt want them)
So far, the turbos we have to test are (i will edit this list as turbos get added)
1) Twinscroll T4 Borgwarner Airwerks S300SX 83-75 1.10 A/R
2) Twinscroll T4 Borgwarner Airwerks S300SX 91-79 1.10 A/R
3) Twinscroll T4 HTA35R - 1.06 A/R
4) Singlescroll HTA35R - ??? a/r singlescroll T3 or T4 (get back to me on this ppl!)
5) Twinscroll T4 Garrett 3582R 1.06 A/R
6) Singlescroll Garrett 3582R ?? a/r singlescroll T3 or T4 (Same as hta singlescroll test)
7) Someone asked for the 6262 turbo and 6265???? if anyone has one of these and is willing to let me install it, run it, remove it and ship it back I promise to take good care of your baby and get it back to you in good health.
PLEASE READ: This thread is meant purely to be educational. I dont have all the time in the world, but I am free for most of this week and a customer is kind enough to lend us his 2.3L buschur built evo. This test is not all encompassing but we will log backpressure and intake manifold pressure and it will be done on an unbiased mustang dyno @ vivid.
I welcome everyone who loves twinscroll, everyone who is on the fence about it, and everyone who hates it. I would love to hear input from dave buschur, robert young from FP, martin or eric from AMS, all of you guys who are doing your thing to keep the industry going. Ron shearer, we already know what you think
KEEP THE POSTS PROFESSIONAL - TRY HARD NOT TO CLUTTER THANK YOU
background on the car: This is an Evo 8 and it was built by Dave B in Ohio. The customer lives in New Mexico so Mitch has been helping him tune. The set up was a BR 2.3 with BR Stage 3 head HTA 35R and supporting mods. The car made ~580 on a dyno jet at 32psi on 91octane Pump+ Meth. The car is put together VERY well and no doubt another fantastic build from Dave. The only changes are to the turbo and turbokit. It uses the same BR 2.3L engine (no changes or adjustments) and BR FMIC w/ BR 2.5" stainless steel charge piping. stock ported intake manifold and tb. stock cam gears (i prefer adjustables but the customer didnt want them)
So far, the turbos we have to test are (i will edit this list as turbos get added)
1) Twinscroll T4 Borgwarner Airwerks S300SX 83-75 1.10 A/R
2) Twinscroll T4 Borgwarner Airwerks S300SX 91-79 1.10 A/R
3) Twinscroll T4 HTA35R - 1.06 A/R
4) Singlescroll HTA35R - ??? a/r singlescroll T3 or T4 (get back to me on this ppl!)
5) Twinscroll T4 Garrett 3582R 1.06 A/R
6) Singlescroll Garrett 3582R ?? a/r singlescroll T3 or T4 (Same as hta singlescroll test)
7) Someone asked for the 6262 turbo and 6265???? if anyone has one of these and is willing to let me install it, run it, remove it and ship it back I promise to take good care of your baby and get it back to you in good health.
PLEASE READ: This thread is meant purely to be educational. I dont have all the time in the world, but I am free for most of this week and a customer is kind enough to lend us his 2.3L buschur built evo. This test is not all encompassing but we will log backpressure and intake manifold pressure and it will be done on an unbiased mustang dyno @ vivid.
I welcome everyone who loves twinscroll, everyone who is on the fence about it, and everyone who hates it. I would love to hear input from dave buschur, robert young from FP, martin or eric from AMS, all of you guys who are doing your thing to keep the industry going. Ron shearer, we already know what you think
KEEP THE POSTS PROFESSIONAL - TRY HARD NOT TO CLUTTER THANK YOU
the 6262 i would also do the same text with.
the 6265 we already know is more laggy.
A .63 housing imho sucks. we need power. .63 is for preschoolers. im in high school graduate. lets go.
Trending Topics
Feb 9, 2009, 12:13 PM
#8
This thread has started with a dyno sheet of an underperforming 35r and a not completely tuned twin scroll turbo with a broken boost controller. Uhhm, this is not a very scientific place to start.
What A/R is the 35R plot using?
Will boost be kept the same between tests?
What A/R is the 35R plot using?
Will boost be kept the same between tests?
Feb 9, 2009, 12:18 PM
#9
test reg 35r VS hta 35r vs hta86 WITH ALL .82 back housings in t3 single scroll and t3 or t4 twinscroll using nothing smaller then a 1.06.VS the BW turbo in t3 or t4 1.06 twin scroll.
the 6262 i would also do the same text with.
the 6265 we already know is more laggy.
A .63 housing imho sucks. we need power. .63 is for preschoolers. im in high school graduate. lets go.
the 6262 i would also do the same text with.
the 6265 we already know is more laggy.
A .63 housing imho sucks. we need power. .63 is for preschoolers. im in high school graduate. lets go.
+1 +1 +1 +1Some of us want to use a T3 TS mani for our T3 TS Turbine hsings.
Feb 9, 2009, 12:43 PM
#11
test reg 35r VS hta 35r vs hta86 WITH ALL .82 back housings in t3 single scroll and t3 or t4 twinscroll using nothing smaller then a 1.06.VS the BW turbo in t3 or t4 1.06 twin scroll.
the 6262 i would also do the same text with.
the 6265 we already know is more laggy.
A .63 housing imho sucks. we need power. .63 is for preschoolers. im in high school graduate. lets go.
the 6262 i would also do the same text with.
the 6265 we already know is more laggy.
A .63 housing imho sucks. we need power. .63 is for preschoolers. im in high school graduate. lets go.
this would be a nice test indeed
Feb 9, 2009, 12:54 PM
#14
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Granted it is not ideal to test between different days. But I dont have enough time to swap over 6 turbos in a day and dyno them all.
We will do the best we can to keep things accurate and unbiased.
Mitch
We will do the best we can to keep things accurate and unbiased.
Mitch
Feb 9, 2009, 01:01 PM
#15
I don't really want involved in this at all, just going to turn into a pissing match.
I will say one thing. DO NOT PUT THE GT35R, HTA35R OR ANY OTHER VARIATION OF THE 35R into a T4 housing, single scroll unless you want to prove for some reason the spool up and power both suck. The T4 housing doesn't belong on the 35r based turbos.
I have a graph just of .82 and 1.06 on a T3 single scroll test I did and the spool up difference is rediculous. We put the HTA88 into a T4 .84housing and it wouldn't make more than 43 psi with no wastegate at all and spooled up like crap, slower than a GT42r.
If you are going to do the test and do it right you have to do it using a properly built T3 header. Then put the T4 housing on a properly built T4 twin scroll and do the testing on the same turbo in both housings. Only way to do it. Anything else is a waste of time and BS.
I will say one thing. DO NOT PUT THE GT35R, HTA35R OR ANY OTHER VARIATION OF THE 35R into a T4 housing, single scroll unless you want to prove for some reason the spool up and power both suck. The T4 housing doesn't belong on the 35r based turbos.
I have a graph just of .82 and 1.06 on a T3 single scroll test I did and the spool up difference is rediculous. We put the HTA88 into a T4 .84housing and it wouldn't make more than 43 psi with no wastegate at all and spooled up like crap, slower than a GT42r.
If you are going to do the test and do it right you have to do it using a properly built T3 header. Then put the T4 housing on a properly built T4 twin scroll and do the testing on the same turbo in both housings. Only way to do it. Anything else is a waste of time and BS.