what intercooler to get...
Feb 9, 2009 | 11:04 PM
#31
intercooler threads have been gone over a million times...I originally wanted an ETS 4 inch intercooler then i found out that they didn't use garret cores and even the people that made sure to ask for a garret core didn't receive one...i've seen plenty of proven tests with the Buschur Race FMIC so that is what i went with...the guys in the big brown truck just dropped it off last week...
Feb 9, 2009 | 11:13 PM
#33
No body mentions it but the APS intercooler is a bad mother. I run it with no problems you should add that to the list and check it out. i have injen piping you have to modify the piping system alittle if you want it to fit a straight ended intercooler. Pm me for details i have already done it.
Feb 9, 2009 | 11:48 PM
#34
I had some info/questions to add. I myself would really like the Buschur because of the Garret core. But** I don't want to cut my crash beam so it really rules that out.
The main garret core I find is a 24x12x3.5in rated at 925hp. SBR uses it in there kit as does this place here: http://www.turboelements.com/index.p...d&productId=73
Has anybody used either one of those? Also curious about the AGP as I heard it uses the garret core (same 24x12x3.5 core dimensions). I also read somebody state it uses a Spearco core, anybody know for a fact which core they use or have useful tech on Spearco vs Garret. Even though this is another intercooler thread maybe some nice tech can be exchanged without adding the "favorite brand fanboitism"....I hope.
The main garret core I find is a 24x12x3.5in rated at 925hp. SBR uses it in there kit as does this place here: http://www.turboelements.com/index.p...d&productId=73
Has anybody used either one of those? Also curious about the AGP as I heard it uses the garret core (same 24x12x3.5 core dimensions). I also read somebody state it uses a Spearco core, anybody know for a fact which core they use or have useful tech on Spearco vs Garret. Even though this is another intercooler thread maybe some nice tech can be exchanged without adding the "favorite brand fanboitism"....I hope.
Last edited by dbsears; Feb 10, 2009 at 12:11 AM.
Feb 9, 2009 | 11:48 PM
#35
The AMS intercooler with the redesigned endtanks should be coming out soon. Cant go wrong with AMS. https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/au...-redesign.html
Feb 10, 2009 | 02:14 AM
#37
thanks for the replies guys i do appreciate it. only reason i am asking what intercooler to get is because i dont have the money right now to get the buschur. i do like the buschur but its just way too expensive. ive heard nothing but good things about the perrin, ets, ams, and buschur thats basically narrowing it down. i am only worrying about heatsoaking in the summer since i havent driven my car with the current mods through the summer even though i think i should be fine because i dont race but i only drive hard on occasion...about the ebay one s2kracka idk i was thinkin it was kinda fishy too but it did say guaranteed 100% perrin or double money back haha id like to buy a knock off and get double money anyway
anyways sorry for the semi long post guys and thanks again you guys are really helpful!
anyways sorry for the semi long post guys and thanks again you guys are really helpful!
As for the people that have ebay cores and or thinking about getting one you all just need to sell your car and get a civic. Ebay intercoolers have been tested and the results were BAD. I forget who did the test but I remember after one dyno pull it gained something stupid like 80 degrees after ONE dyno pull. Now I dont know who is stupid enough to want to have that on your car but I'd rather spend the extra money and get the Buschur.
Last edited by WickedIXMR; Feb 10, 2009 at 02:17 AM.
Feb 10, 2009 | 03:23 AM
#38
Building the perfect (Almost) intercooler....
Step one - Get job at intercooler shop.
Step two - Beg for drops
Step three - Build the BAFMIC
Honestly, the number of internal channels, there by the height, and to a smaller degree the thickness of the core are the most important dimensions. The more channels, the more air, the less restriction. Oddly, length has diminishing returns past a certain point, that is to say you may see 80+% eff. across 20" of core but adding 4-6" more might only net you another 2-5%. This depends alot on the HP rating of the car and actual CFM across the core. Buying a longer core with similar to stock HxW dimensions is pointless.
Still, just like a radiator, the most important figure is frontal area, but height more than length until power levels are high enough. I have seen at least 2 major manufacturers who sell FMIC's that use the exact same frontal area dimensions as stock but switch to a bar/plate core with maybe .5" increase thickness. You may as well save your money and keep the stocker, cause your eff. improvement might be 5% at most for your 500.00 purchase. That won't be 5% in HP, more like outlet temps of 95 instead of 100, just an example.
Mention has been made about the cores themselves which I like to see. Core quality and design can vary greatly. Vacuum braised plates are always best and you can visually spot ones that are done that way. Some ChinaBay cores don't come with internal turbulators. Others use oversized bars to increase the size but in total it reduces the number of channels for a given size. Look out for non staggered external fins or external fins that are widely spaced, (See Ford PS Diesel IC style, i.e. /\/\/\/\) Others use 1/8" aluminum top and bottom plates. You know how much pressure it takes to bend 1/8" aluminum? Not alot.
The endtank design of alot of the FMIC's I see on cars are just pathetically inefficient as well. Tanks with a 90 degree bend on the tank, no baffling, box tanks, just sad. Any time you redirect airflow, you lose power, that means any time. If it's in a pipe, mandrel, or the endtank of your IC, it's a direct power loss to redirect the air.
One more thing, I am yet to see an IC manufacturer give an honest value as to the rated HP of their core, with rare exception. Just because a friend is running 480 on his/her ChinaBay core, it doesn't mean that it isn't woefully inefficient at that power level and he/she would see a large and immediate gain from going to a better core. IC's are rated at max HP for a given drop across the core. The calculation isn't as simple as it seems. As large as my core is, we still rated it for an honest 625-650 at 1psi. Have SSGhettochrome/Random Ebay Seller rate that core and it's in the 1000's. It would probably do it, but never at 1psi drop.
So for me, I made my FMIC as big as I thought I reasonably could. Why? I wanted my car to overheat...and it does.
Sorry for the lecture. I work around these things all day and I think there are more IC myths than ancient Greece had gods.
/brox
Step one - Get job at intercooler shop.
Step two - Beg for drops
Step three - Build the BAFMIC
Honestly, the number of internal channels, there by the height, and to a smaller degree the thickness of the core are the most important dimensions. The more channels, the more air, the less restriction. Oddly, length has diminishing returns past a certain point, that is to say you may see 80+% eff. across 20" of core but adding 4-6" more might only net you another 2-5%. This depends alot on the HP rating of the car and actual CFM across the core. Buying a longer core with similar to stock HxW dimensions is pointless.
Still, just like a radiator, the most important figure is frontal area, but height more than length until power levels are high enough. I have seen at least 2 major manufacturers who sell FMIC's that use the exact same frontal area dimensions as stock but switch to a bar/plate core with maybe .5" increase thickness. You may as well save your money and keep the stocker, cause your eff. improvement might be 5% at most for your 500.00 purchase. That won't be 5% in HP, more like outlet temps of 95 instead of 100, just an example.
Mention has been made about the cores themselves which I like to see. Core quality and design can vary greatly. Vacuum braised plates are always best and you can visually spot ones that are done that way. Some ChinaBay cores don't come with internal turbulators. Others use oversized bars to increase the size but in total it reduces the number of channels for a given size. Look out for non staggered external fins or external fins that are widely spaced, (See Ford PS Diesel IC style, i.e. /\/\/\/\) Others use 1/8" aluminum top and bottom plates. You know how much pressure it takes to bend 1/8" aluminum? Not alot.
The endtank design of alot of the FMIC's I see on cars are just pathetically inefficient as well. Tanks with a 90 degree bend on the tank, no baffling, box tanks, just sad. Any time you redirect airflow, you lose power, that means any time. If it's in a pipe, mandrel, or the endtank of your IC, it's a direct power loss to redirect the air.
One more thing, I am yet to see an IC manufacturer give an honest value as to the rated HP of their core, with rare exception. Just because a friend is running 480 on his/her ChinaBay core, it doesn't mean that it isn't woefully inefficient at that power level and he/she would see a large and immediate gain from going to a better core. IC's are rated at max HP for a given drop across the core. The calculation isn't as simple as it seems. As large as my core is, we still rated it for an honest 625-650 at 1psi. Have SSGhettochrome/Random Ebay Seller rate that core and it's in the 1000's. It would probably do it, but never at 1psi drop.
So for me, I made my FMIC as big as I thought I reasonably could. Why? I wanted my car to overheat...and it does.
Sorry for the lecture. I work around these things all day and I think there are more IC myths than ancient Greece had gods.
/brox
Feb 10, 2009 | 04:19 AM
#39
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From: nyc
Alot of the people here aren't really understanding what the main purpose of an intercooler is. The point of it is to keep the air intake temperatures as low as possible. The reason why people are telling you to go with Buschur is because they probably actually know what they are talking about. If you look at Dynoflash's test of the ETS 4.5in core the temps went up over 40 degrees in a single dyno pull. The Buschur core temps went up less then 20 degrees from a single dyno pull. The ETS also got really heat soaked and the also makes the car a little bit laggier than the Buschur core and made 20whp less then the Buschur core and needless to say the ETS is a half inch thicker.
Where is he link on the comparison between the ETS core 4.5" and the Buschur/Garrett core done by dynoflash? Which core r u actually using?
Alot of us would like to see the testing done vs just hearing folks say "Buschur,ETS,Buschur,ETS"! I've heard that they r both good.
Please post the link!
Last edited by ceegutta; Feb 10, 2009 at 04:22 AM.
Feb 10, 2009 | 04:32 AM
#40
The 4" BR Race IC uses a Garrett core. I am aware that BR also sells an optional, thicker Race FMIC which I think employs a 4.5" core. Is this also a Garrett core?
Feb 10, 2009 | 07:41 AM
#41
That is a Broxma IC. I made that intercooler. It is a 24x4.5x14 API core with custom entanks and an internal baffle on the inlet side. The mounts are custom to allow it to sit behind the bar with a small cut with the bandsaw. The front fan had to be removed and the power steering cooler hardline was swapped out with a cooler from BEGI that they use on their Miata's.
Here it is as it sits behind the bumper. I had to cut the bumper to accommodate the pipes since I wanted them further up on that tank.
Someone made mention of larger cores making less power/more soak earlier and I wanted to hit on that. Ideally in a perfect intercooler you would have equal distribution of the airflow going through each bar. This however doesn't happen. What happens is the majority of the airflow goes through the bars directly adjacent to the inlet basically leaving the ones at the top and bottom, if using a centered inlet, less efficient. Efficiency is at its greatest when 1) all bars are filled equally and 2) airflow across each external channel is equal. Redirecting the airflow perfectly in both these directions is very hard to do and accounts for much of the difference between similar, even very quality name brand intercoolers.
As I said earlier, much of the difference in the measured efficiency of similar quality cores comes from the endtank design which is not something that is usually gone into in detail on a website.
/brox
Feb 10, 2009 | 08:02 AM
#42
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From: Staten Island
funny thing is the kid that told me to get the ebay intercooler hada del sol hahaha, so anyway i would have to be paying about $800 for a buschur fmic? that would be the best?
Feb 10, 2009 | 11:55 AM
#43
Another here we go again thread!
Where is he link on the comparison between the ETS core 4.5" and the Buschur/Garrett core done by dynoflash? Which core r u actually using?
Alot of us would like to see the testing done vs just hearing folks say "Buschur,ETS,Buschur,ETS"! I've heard that they r both good.
Please post the link!
Where is he link on the comparison between the ETS core 4.5" and the Buschur/Garrett core done by dynoflash? Which core r u actually using?
Alot of us would like to see the testing done vs just hearing folks say "Buschur,ETS,Buschur,ETS"! I've heard that they r both good.
Please post the link!
Yes that would be the best thing to do. Just remember bigger doesn't mean better and Dynoflash proved that theory with his intercooler test. You can always go with another intercooler and gain power but what you wont know as many others don't know the air intake temps goes up a lot more then the Buschur does during pulls and thats what the whole purpose of an intercooler is for.
Feb 10, 2009 | 12:38 PM
#44
Street pull after street pull I get no knock increase, heat soak, or loss in power via DLL graphs with my ETS 3.5 in and 61mm BB Turbo .
The intercooler works flawlessly for my car and power level PERIOD.
I prefer to do my tuning on the street as this is where the car spends its time.
Never knocking the Buschur FMIC or any Buschur part for that matter them guys are geniuses and pioneers. Their parts and service are on top of their game and no one will ever loose out running Buschur parts.
Just that I take anything that comes from Dynoflash with a grain of salt and would never take his advice on anything.
The intercooler works flawlessly for my car and power level PERIOD.
I prefer to do my tuning on the street as this is where the car spends its time.
Never knocking the Buschur FMIC or any Buschur part for that matter them guys are geniuses and pioneers. Their parts and service are on top of their game and no one will ever loose out running Buschur parts.
Just that I take anything that comes from Dynoflash with a grain of salt and would never take his advice on anything.