tnt1106

??? there has been at least pics of several broken cams through out the various threads now. granted not with batch numbers attached yet still the proof the cams broke is still there in the pictures. i don't see this brothers uncles cousin you keep reffering to. perhaps you could point them out to us?

SRT-TO-EVO

iTrader: (12)

I have to 100% agree with tnt here. John it surely seems as you are trying to downplay this whole situation quite a bit which is disturbing. I won't speak for anyone else but that's at least how I've interpreted some of your posts. It almost seems as if you are somehow affiliated with GSC and are willing to defend their cams regardless of what's happening (which wouldn't surprise me being how this has happened before and was kept quiet). You may not take this as serious as others, but a lot of us just don't have 3-4k to throw around at any given time for a full build.

JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

I dont mean to come across as downplaying it. The truth is no one knows without the lab testing what is the cause. However there seem to be some very content to claim its all the cam before the results are back. I dont think most of you understand the idea of negative PR. It is 100% unavoidable that they broke, all I am suggesting is that before some make posts that say I need to pull my cams out now or sell the ones I havent installed that they wait and see.

Otherwise the other lemmings might spook.

There have been some comments from engineers in here that were frighteningly inaccurate. You have to understand how much I despise misinformation. The main reason I do all my own tuning and work (which I did in the domestic arena from whence I came) is I was led astray by internet myths. I dropped over 30k into a car that never ran faster than a 11 because of following myths and mismatched mods (that and it was a WRX). Despite what it looks like I am trying to look out for other people like I was.

SRT-TO-EVO

iTrader: (12)

I agree which is why I haven't yet sold mine. Maybe I don't understand "negative PR" (I don't even know what PR means..pressure ratio?), but what I do understand is that the stockers aren't snapping and these aftermarket ones are, which lead to the inevitable outcome of destruction.

JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

PR=Public relation...advertising.

Stock ones are installed by a robot, are never revved over 8k generally, and dont seem to stay in the car very long.

I also have had 2 sets of GSC MIVEC cams and have for the last 2.5 years. That is the main reason I dont think this is a design flaw, if I cant break them I dont think they will. I have since sold the S1s but they are currently in a car making over 400whp and I dont expect to see any issues in it either.

I have personally been to Kelford in Christchurch. I was there in 2005 when I still had my subaru in fact to see what cams were available and get an idea of what the place looked like. Call it what you will but when I have a product that works better than any I have tested or tuned I feel a "vested loyalty".

To be perfectly clear, there have been pix from GST and the DFW guys. Any of the other claims (unless I have missed them) have yet to produce pictures of failure. Kelford has only been informed of one prior set to this. It seems very rare at that level compared to the general reaction this board is generating.

I dont have 3-4k to throw around needlessly either and would never ask anyone to run a product I think is going to cause engine failure. At the same time, defaming a manufacturer that is intolerable without clearcut evidence of negligence. I do not think that yet exists in this case nor do I believe it will.

It is unfortunate that there were failures but its like saying that its Mitsubishi's fault that their rod bolts break. Not everyone has problems but when they break it is that same 3-4k. I have abused mine just to see if I can make them break. I havent had a headgasket failure on stock headbolts or headgasket, my bottom end hasnt exploded becuase of stock rod bolts. So when the guys that have encountered this through no fault of their own (tune was good, boost was low, fuel was good, etc.) it is really a bad deal but who do you blame? Mitsubishi, the owner, or simply bad luck?

tnt1106

comparing stock parts to aftermarket parts "designed" for higher power levels and performace is like compairing shaving lotion to quick dry concrete..

I for one loved my GSC cams and told all my friends / evo family my great experiences with them. Right up till the moment they failed. Even then I took the exact route I did with another after market product failure on my evo. It was only when it was not handled at all, just a closed door if you will, "our products can not fail" attitude I decided to come forward with my experience and hopfully through public knowledge help others avoid an engine rebuild.

If you really pay attention there have been pictures posted from west coast, east coat as well as tx of failed cams. There are other vendors on here I have had direct contact with experienced failures with this core design as well. To keep peace I promised to with hold any names.

I understand your loyalty and that is great that you have cores that do not snap off! Keep them enjoy them. The few of us that are now building or have built new motors due to a cam failure do not have that same outlook.

SRT-TO-EVO

iTrader: (12)

While I do agree with some of the things you said, I also have to disagree with many. Engine failures could be attributed to way too many variables (maintenance, abuse, tune, temp, oil, egts etc.), whereas this is pretty clear cut. I understand where you're coming from (some people just get the short end of the stick) but it's essentially not the same deal, and shouldn't be compared. This is reoccurring in various cars with the SAME part at the SAME place. Not only that, but it's also NOT occurring in the people who are using different cams (FP, Stock) that are noticeably larger around the groove. Maybe it's me, but I'm not that naive to believe this is just coincidence.

R/TErnie

iTrader: (32)

Yes your situation is more than unfortunate. I'm going to install my S2's and lay off the hype-pipe. Good day.

93 3gt vr4

so where is this list of failures? . I have a set of kelfords 272's bought straight from kelford in october 08, shipped in two boxes, casting# ch25. THEY ARE NOT BROKEN. But i have just recently installed them along with valve springs and retainers, and only have 500 miles or so on them. I like the cams and don't want to remove or grenade my engine like most people. btw you can check the casting number through the oil cap. This is a terrible thread and i hope these cams just fell off the counter or somethin. What kind of backing does kelford have for their cams? What kind of info can you tell from the casting number? Thanks..

R/TErnie

iTrader: (32)

CH25!?!?! Oh no...

93 3gt vr4

**** you!

EvoHung

iTrader: (18)

You guys are funny. He doesn't mean any harm.
Its like a classical conditioning (a little Psychology material) of fear when we saw those pictures of the broken cams. The broken cams act as the Unconditioned stimulus and the fear is the Unconditioned response. Now when we hear "kelford batch ###", that becomes the Conditioned stimulus causing fear (now the conditioned response). Not saying it will break on you but it will always put that picture in my mind when I hear/see about these cams.

Pure EvoIX

iTrader: (7)

^ I remember this in my Psychology 1 class. lol. Pavlov's Classical conditioning using his dog. Sry off topic. Everyone send your broken cams to manufacturer and let them test them and see what caused the break. Document everything (when, how, where it broke, mileage, etc). Ask the manufacturer's their testing process and how they determine what caused the break. Ask as many questions as you can. Get as much information as you can in writing on the entire process. Tell them everything you know prior and during the failure. Wait. Report back their findings.

NWM_Tech

You're being merchandised or they had a tensh fail on them at some point, munched an engine, and are now paranoid.

You could replace at the 2nd Tbelt if concerned, I've seen them at 180K mi and still good.

from the EVO IX Mitsu factory service manual



you should check it out, you can actually learn quite a lot...

--------------------

still waiting for someone to measure the diam at the bottom of the groove on a stock cam and a broken cam for comparison.

smack_evo

iTrader: (4)

my cossie m3 that broke measured identical(within a few thousandths) to my old stock cam in depth and width on the grooves, just not the fillet.
i also picked up a set of fp4's and as someone posted earlier the grooves on the fp cam is .050 more shallow so really .100 thou more material. that can't hurt.

so one thing that i've been coming back to especially with kelfords comments here now...
so they say that they use the same cores as fp. if that's so then when are the grooves cut? i always thought the blanks come with everything done except the lobe grinds. someone mentioned in an earlier thread about the possibility of the grooves getting cut after the heat treating process and maybe cutting through to a "softer" portion of the material. since there is definitely a difference in groove depths but they supposedly use the same blanks how does that work?