my intake cam snapped?!!?
Mar 18, 2009, 06:44 AM
#241
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my cossie m3 that broke measured identical(within a few thousandths) to my old stock cam in depth and width on the grooves, just not the fillet.
i also picked up a set of fp4's and as someone posted earlier the grooves on the fp cam is .050 more shallow so really .100 thou more material. that can't hurt.
so one thing that i've been coming back to especially with kelfords comments here now...
so they say that they use the same cores as fp. if that's so then when are the grooves cut? i always thought the blanks come with everything done except the lobe grinds. someone mentioned in an earlier thread about the possibility of the grooves getting cut after the heat treating process and maybe cutting through to a "softer" portion of the material. since there is definitely a difference in groove depths but they supposedly use the same blanks how does that work?
i also picked up a set of fp4's and as someone posted earlier the grooves on the fp cam is .050 more shallow so really .100 thou more material. that can't hurt.
so one thing that i've been coming back to especially with kelfords comments here now...
so they say that they use the same cores as fp. if that's so then when are the grooves cut? i always thought the blanks come with everything done except the lobe grinds. someone mentioned in an earlier thread about the possibility of the grooves getting cut after the heat treating process and maybe cutting through to a "softer" portion of the material. since there is definitely a difference in groove depths but they supposedly use the same blanks how does that work?
As many have pointed out, Kelford has sold thousands of EVO9 cores, currenly they have ony had 1 issues that was brough up to them. Thats less then .01% error assuming a minimum of 1,000 cams were sold. Definitly not enough error to warrant a full product recall. There are hundreds of cars out there running the cams with absolutly no isseues, to assume the probelm is 100% the cam core design would be saying every cam was breaking, this is certainly not the case.
Have any of you with Kelford cams actually tried contacting kelford with your issues or asked for replacement cams? Or even sent in their cams to them to be inspected? There seems to be alot of speculation in this post and not enough supporting information. I have yet to see someone post a detailed analysis of their cams breaking.
I am looking forward to seeing the lab results come back and be the judge for all of us.
"We use both cores and have done for a long time. The one you call the FP or Comp Cams core has been our core since long before those guys even knew what a EVO IX was.
That core has its own set of issues but it is stronger in the front journal area. Motovicity has had our 9-177-C and -D on the Japan core for a while now as we ran out of the other core earlier this year"
Mar 18, 2009, 07:02 AM
#242
You may have misread about the cores, there are 2 different cores, the core that you are refering to and the "fp" core. Both used by kelford. ALL of the cams being sold since Feb. of this year by Kelford are the "fp" core cams, not due to failures of the other cores as much as issues with backorders from the supplier.
As many have pointed out, Kelford has sold thousands of EVO9 cores, currenly they have ony had 1 issues that was brough up to them. Thats less then .01% error assuming a minimum of 1,000 cams were sold. Definitly not enough error to warrant a full product recall. There are hundreds of cars out there running the cams with absolutly no isseues, to assume the probelm is 100% the cam core design would be saying every cam was breaking, this is certainly not the case.
As many have pointed out, Kelford has sold thousands of EVO9 cores, currenly they have ony had 1 issues that was brough up to them. Thats less then .01% error assuming a minimum of 1,000 cams were sold. Definitly not enough error to warrant a full product recall. There are hundreds of cars out there running the cams with absolutly no isseues, to assume the probelm is 100% the cam core design would be saying every cam was breaking, this is certainly not the case.
What is unfortunate, other than the damaged caused to several evo owners' cars, is that we [the community] don't really know what is causing the problem and are being led away from what appeared to be a great performing camshaft
.
Last edited by cij911; Mar 18, 2009 at 07:08 AM.
Mar 18, 2009, 07:24 AM
#243
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From other posts and response from Kelford, Kelford clearly has had more than 3 reported camshaft failures. Given the three reported all broke in the same manner and that Kelford identified a concern, I believe there is a bit more to it than you suggest. As for the speculation of the number of cams sold, I doubt Kelford has sold 1,000+ Evo 9 cams (I would have guessed a few hundred), which still keeps the failure rate extremely low.
What is unfortunate, other than the damaged caused to several evo owners' cars, is that we [the community] don't really know what is causing the problem and are being led away from what appeared to be a great performing camshaft.
What is unfortunate, other than the damaged caused to several evo owners' cars, is that we [the community] don't really know what is causing the problem and are being led away from what appeared to be a great performing camshaft
.The sales number is not speculation by me, im going off of what kelford posted a few pages back, over 1500 cams were sold.
So lets go to an extreme, say 5 cams broke, thats a 0.33% failure rate. What about the other 1495 cams out in the market? Still a cam shaft core issue? Possible, but unlikely.
Im not sold on either story until the cam lab test come back or someone steps up and actually sends their broken cams to kelford for a evaluation.
Mar 18, 2009, 07:51 AM
#244
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PR=Public relation...advertising.
Stock ones are installed by a robot, are never revved over 8k generally, and dont seem to stay in the car very long.
I also have had 2 sets of GSC MIVEC cams and have for the last 2.5 years. That is the main reason I dont think this is a design flaw, if I cant break them I dont think they will. I have since sold the S1s but they are currently in a car making over 400whp and I dont expect to see any issues in it either.
I have personally been to Kelford in Christchurch. I was there in 2005 when I still had my subaru in fact to see what cams were available and get an idea of what the place looked like. Call it what you will but when I have a product that works better than any I have tested or tuned I feel a "vested loyalty".
To be perfectly clear, there have been pix from GST and the DFW guys. Any of the other claims (unless I have missed them) have yet to produce pictures of failure. Kelford has only been informed of one prior set to this. It seems very rare at that level compared to the general reaction this board is generating.
I dont have 3-4k to throw around needlessly either and would never ask anyone to run a product I think is going to cause engine failure. At the same time, defaming a manufacturer that is intolerable without clearcut evidence of negligence. I do not think that yet exists in this case nor do I believe it will.
It is unfortunate that there were failures but its like saying that its Mitsubishi's fault that their rod bolts break. Not everyone has problems but when they break it is that same 3-4k. I have abused mine just to see if I can make them break. I havent had a headgasket failure on stock headbolts or headgasket, my bottom end hasnt exploded becuase of stock rod bolts. So when the guys that have encountered this through no fault of their own (tune was good, boost was low, fuel was good, etc.) it is really a bad deal but who do you blame? Mitsubishi, the owner, or simply bad luck?
Stock ones are installed by a robot, are never revved over 8k generally, and dont seem to stay in the car very long.
I also have had 2 sets of GSC MIVEC cams and have for the last 2.5 years. That is the main reason I dont think this is a design flaw, if I cant break them I dont think they will. I have since sold the S1s but they are currently in a car making over 400whp and I dont expect to see any issues in it either.
I have personally been to Kelford in Christchurch. I was there in 2005 when I still had my subaru in fact to see what cams were available and get an idea of what the place looked like. Call it what you will but when I have a product that works better than any I have tested or tuned I feel a "vested loyalty".
To be perfectly clear, there have been pix from GST and the DFW guys. Any of the other claims (unless I have missed them) have yet to produce pictures of failure. Kelford has only been informed of one prior set to this. It seems very rare at that level compared to the general reaction this board is generating.
I dont have 3-4k to throw around needlessly either and would never ask anyone to run a product I think is going to cause engine failure. At the same time, defaming a manufacturer that is intolerable without clearcut evidence of negligence. I do not think that yet exists in this case nor do I believe it will.
It is unfortunate that there were failures but its like saying that its Mitsubishi's fault that their rod bolts break. Not everyone has problems but when they break it is that same 3-4k. I have abused mine just to see if I can make them break. I havent had a headgasket failure on stock headbolts or headgasket, my bottom end hasnt exploded becuase of stock rod bolts. So when the guys that have encountered this through no fault of their own (tune was good, boost was low, fuel was good, etc.) it is really a bad deal but who do you blame? Mitsubishi, the owner, or simply bad luck?
john, i've got nothing against you really, but you haven't provided anything useful either, other then "people are saying wrong information", and "GSC cams work great". of course they are until one breaks! i think your trying to be the reasonable head here, and we definately need that. but if you truely want to, tell us your background, and explain in detail why you think the cams are breaking. its obvious you think it is the install and or shipping damage.... but i want to hear your justification for it. have you seen any broken cams through your shop?
now, you work at a shop, you've installed prolly tons of cams as well. its only a matter of time until one of these cams breaks on you too then your customer goes to you and says "john, you recommended these cams to me and said they wont ever break! now i have a 4k dollar motor to fix". when it happens to you, are you going to be the shop that says:
1)wow that sucks, i'll sell you another set and put it in this motor i have sitting here that i will also sell you, because it is obviously you were driving the car to hard/it was damaged in shipping/you installed it incorrectly?
2)its odd that cam broke right on a stress riser. its even more odd that this has happened in a number of peoples cams all across the country. lets investigate this situation further. at the least, the cam company should give you a new cam if indeed it was a bad batch/poor design. at worst it was pure negligence, the manufacturer knew it was a bad design and shipped them anyway, and they should pay for a new motor. if we find it was abuse/install/freak accident without a doubt, then refer to #1.
inheriently rod bolts are the weakest link. the fasteners should always be the weak link because they are the easiest to replace. cams should never break. if belt harmonics are breaking cams, it is a design flaw and your not giving enough strength/engineering to the cam (it should have a huge safety factor and account for belt harmonics). think tacoma narrows bridge....
Mar 18, 2009, 07:55 AM
#246
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See here guys, work will start this weekend!
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/gs...ml#post6824526
-Danny
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/gs...ml#post6824526
-Danny
Mar 18, 2009, 09:25 AM
#248
I have broken two Kelford cams. I sent the first one back to them in December. At that time they told me they only ever saw 3-4 sets break in 1500 manufactured and sold. And that I was doing something wrong. Then I got another new set and another broke. Looks like the number of broken Kelfords could be in the 30-40 plus range now. And growing.
Mar 18, 2009, 09:46 AM
#249
I have broken two Kelford cams. I sent the first one back to them in December. At that time they told me they only ever saw 3-4 sets break in 1500 manufactured and sold. And that I was doing something wrong. Then I got another new set and another broke. Looks like the number of broken Kelfords could be in the 30-40 plus range now. And growing.
Mar 18, 2009, 10:22 AM
#250
I have broken two Kelford cams. I sent the first one back to them in December. At that time they told me they only ever saw 3-4 sets break in 1500 manufactured and sold. And that I was doing something wrong. Then I got another new set and another broke. Looks like the number of broken Kelfords could be in the 30-40 plus range now. And growing.
Mar 18, 2009, 10:50 AM
#251
Evolved Member
Mar 18, 2009, 05:07 PM
#254
IMO,
If its a design flaw, I would expect the failure rate to be much higher. Not too many have come out....yet (if any more)
There are just many variables to point at a root cause at this point without study....from overtorqueing bolts and belts to materials used in the batch and maybe even a design flaw.
I for one am not changing out my cams (Kelfs 272's). Driven cross country on this design and have had them for over a year.
If its a design flaw, I would expect the failure rate to be much higher. Not too many have come out....yet (if any more)
There are just many variables to point at a root cause at this point without study....from overtorqueing bolts and belts to materials used in the batch and maybe even a design flaw.
I for one am not changing out my cams (Kelfs 272's). Driven cross country on this design and have had them for over a year.
Mar 18, 2009, 05:41 PM
#255
First off I am only addressing this single post as I promised to not post in this thread anymore. This specifically for the business questions and not promote my personal opinions nor defend manufacturers.
We added up that this year alone we have installed 30 sets of MIVEC cams. Cosworth, JUN, GSC, Kelford. The only ones we havent done are the Tomei and Greddy. I have tuned each example a few times, but nothing installed currently for the last 2. We have seen no broken cams of any kind nor heard reports prior to the set that TNT lost.
I make customers happy. If I sell a part and it F's up its on me. If a customer F's it up and its obvious abuse we discuss it. Something like this where there is no basis for failure prior I would be eating the rebuild. This is why I am very particular about what I sell and recommend. I dont spend customers budgets frivolously or on parts that are know for making less power. There is more than one reason for instance that we dont sell BC products anymore as an example.
Only because you asked on this-
My personal thought is this was shipping or install as you already pointed out. I have shown the initial failure pix to Metallurgists, Machinists, and even my Top Fuel/Pro Stock guy. They all agree that if it were a design or metallurgy failure it would be a radial shear not axial. A similar example is how the hollow shaft breaks in the center diff when the ACD causes a bind. That is a better example than the rod bolts to be truthful. Having gone through that I can tell you thats a perfect example of something that shouldnt break yet it does...alot.
To answer one other question I saw, there are 5K per market share per year. There are now less than 5k 06s on the road, and the SE while an 06 on paper came in late enough it doesnt necessarily fall in the overall amount. I would think that there are well over 5K in the US.
Aaron
Originally Posted by KevinD
john, i've got nothing against you really, have you seen any broken cams through your shop?
now, you work at a shop, you've installed prolly tons of cams as well. ....
now, you work at a shop, you've installed prolly tons of cams as well. ....
Originally Posted by KevinD
its only a matter of time until one of these cams breaks on you too then your customer goes to you and says "john, you recommended these cams to me and said they wont ever break! now i have a 4k dollar motor to fix". when it happens to you, are you going to be the shop that says:....
Only because you asked on this-
My personal thought is this was shipping or install as you already pointed out. I have shown the initial failure pix to Metallurgists, Machinists, and even my Top Fuel/Pro Stock guy. They all agree that if it were a design or metallurgy failure it would be a radial shear not axial. A similar example is how the hollow shaft breaks in the center diff when the ACD causes a bind. That is a better example than the rod bolts to be truthful. Having gone through that I can tell you thats a perfect example of something that shouldnt break yet it does...alot.
To answer one other question I saw, there are 5K per market share per year. There are now less than 5k 06s on the road, and the SE while an 06 on paper came in late enough it doesnt necessarily fall in the overall amount. I would think that there are well over 5K in the US.
Aaron