Gadiel well said!

Also over 1psi less!!!

 

Pretty interesting really.

The Magnus leads on boost, but lags on power. Strange.

I'm not trying to say anybody is lying, but I can definitely see how some may think that the tune was changed based on those graphs. The torque on the DI manifold around 6800 just takes a hit almost like a small amount of timing was pulled out or something.

Anyway, great test. Thanks for the results.

 

Thanks for posting that, I appreciate it.

 

Is it possible for the DI to be more efficiently feeding the engine therefore boost does come in slightly later but the engine is making more torque at less boost at certian rpm points? Things like swirl and tumble and turbulence in the plenum and all that jazz. Also in Daves testing, people always suggested the map sensor location can effect the boost readings a bit.

I mean when one intake is better than another, isn't that the exact point, more power at less boost? And IF that is true, wouldn't it be also be true that boost might come in later as your increasing the VE of the motor? ie takes more mass air flow to create equal resistance?

 

I wish Marco would visit this thread just to give some input on his intake manifold. From what I understand when I spoke with Marco when I tested his intake manifold last year he was gearing it towards making HUGE top end power and doing it at higher RPM. That would explain (to my un-educated mind) why the plenum is 5 liters and the runners are some of the shortest in the 4g63 intake manifold line-up. Here is what Marco says about his intake from his own site:

2 years of research and development
Cast from A356-T6 Aluminum Alloy
High quality casting gives a superior surface finish
Enhanced flow dynamics utilizing CAD Modeling & CFD simulation
Flowbenched and dynamically tested
Dynotested proven up to 50 HP
Ability to flow 100 lb/min (1000 HP) of air at 60PSI while maintaining equal flow distribution
Can be installed in stock location with clearance for original battery (with adaptor)
Install kits feature heat barrier gaskets, and adaptor plate to run stock throttle bodies (easily upgradeable). Remote map sensor boss is optional for use with factory ECU's
Stock turbo gains up to 40HP
15 degree entry to the throttle body facilitates intercooler plumbing
Can be configured for 8 injector setup.
Fits factory fuel rail or Magnus high flow fuel rails
5L plenum with contoured velocity stacks molded into the floor for huge top end and minimal turbulence
Magnus Quality and Lifetime warranty


If you note, he even mentions "huge top end" in his description. I don't believe it was geared towards trying to make a bunch of low/mid range.

Some of you are fighting over two charts that are pretty similar except for some gains in the mid range. Consider the fact that DI's intake has longer runners and a much smaller plenum and put your mind to work, shouldn't take long for you to stop typing.

 

david

 

Who's fighting?

BTW, here soon Ill be picking up a head from you and a intake from DI to stick on. There was no argument on my end if thats what you were referring to. Just wanted to know what kind of boost was all.

 

I guess I'm the unappreciative "fighting" forum member for asking for boost, AFR, and timing curves for the particular "tests".

 

In a very competitive market especially PR i dont blame him.. you wont find even 1 rotary down there with the hood open and NO blanket on the intake to hide the outside of it.. He didnt make the post to profit from it.. He made it to just share his results with the community.. You have to respect that he doesnt want everyone to know where he runs his A/F and Timing..

 

Ernie,

I completely understand what your saying, but you also have to understand that this is a test performed by an individual for his own purposes. He is not advertising, hes just sharing hes experience with both intakes.
Why doesn't Gadiel share his log? Its because he makes money tuning cars! You just dont give away your bread and butter
Same as you dont share the results you have logged on AVL dyno with your companies competitor

 

Giving a competitor our DFD Advance Angle wouldn't do them any good because we have a vastly different engine from them. Maybe the same displacement and similar bore/stroke, but certainly it would be comparing apples to oranges.

Mike@AWD isn't going to be able to use Gadiel's timing advance because he has a different setup. Piston bowl and CC geometry, tumble and swirl, camshaft profile and timing, compression ratio, fuel, ambient conditions, oil consumption, boost pressure, AFR, etc.

Only IDIOTS would try to use your ignition advance in their setups (which are wildly different and in NO way comparable) And even further they’ll only have a few select timing map cells which they wouldn’t be able to generate a complete map from if their life depended on it.

Other “intelligent” tuners wouldn’t dare think of just plugging in timing advance numbers from someone else’s car. MBT should be determined either by a cylinder pressure sensor or by a dyno…preferably NOT a knock sensor (as some of the old skool DSM’er would believe)

So… by these two wildly different people viewing your snap shot of your timing curve… I don’t think there is anything to be learned from your log.

The only thing I can think of is if you’re running some kind of Nitro or Alcohol where your ignition advance will be wildly different from regular leaded race fuel. I think if you’re going to make a comparison of two parts it’s only fitting to show at least the three other MONUMENTALLY SIGNIFICANT inputs… Boost, AFR, and Timing Advance.

that is my point. I don't mean to stir the pot.

I UNDERSTAND that sharing information with competitors, regardless of it's nature, may compromise your performance advantage. No one elses shares their ignition advance, so why start now? The issues comes when less informed people are making decisions as to which product to run without significant data to support the claim regardless of it's eventual validity. This thread IS and WILL be used as a deciding factor between the two intake manifolds for several forum members... whether or not you intended it to be.

 

It still gives those that do not have the upper hand like gadiel in PR an idea of someway to improve upon their current tune by him laying out all the logs and Tables.. You wouldnt catch our tuner doing it either.. NEVER in a million years would you see crispeeds tables on an internet forum and i wouldnt expect gadiel to do it either..

End of the day, you buy what manifold you beleive in based on the information provided.. I personally would have trouble buying a manifold from someone who says their Large plenum short runner manifold shows low end gains over a ported stocker.. Your probably much smarter than i am but with enough experience you can weed out the BS.. The cast Magnus manifold will NEVER gain over a ported stocker.. It just will not happen.. Are their manifold out there with 10k hours of R&D for high dollar race car programs that will make low end , mid and huge top end over something like ported stocker, yeah i am sure it could be done.. The magnus doesnt though..

For those of you who beleive i am biased.. I have sold many magnus manifolds to date.. I am smart enough not to ever tell my customer it will make low end gains over what they have on their car stock.. Sure itll make gains on top.. I beleive in that.. Is it good quality sure it is.. It wont crack i dont think..

I still believe TOM @ Driven spends more time involved with community and getting real world data testing on many drag and street cars to come up with a good design.. Thats why we chose to work with him.. And its proven to pay off on as we are the Quickest car to run his manifold.. We asked for staged Injectors on the 8 injector setup we will be running soon and we got a new design to test.. Again someone involved in the community that stands behind his products is who I would chose to business with EVEN IF THEY MADE THE EXACT SAME LOW, MID AND TOP END HP..

Mike

 

Maybe the title of this thread is a little off the mark in going so far as to say "test" but I think it's kinda a bummer the guy posts two graphs with parts he bought and get's hassled for more info. The data is what it is, if more or less is wanted by any other than the OP they are free to do their own "testing" publishing as much or as little data as they like. Take it for what it as and if you think the reults are skewed...don't use it for your future decision making.

And if what Ernie is saying is true I guess I should be able to find vendors posting their timing curves cause no two setup's are exactly the same.

 

Much of the reason i dont like to test 2 products and post about it.. No matter what it will be said that there is a motive in posting the results.. Whether it be to bash another product, promote your products, promote a company you carries product.. Always you will be accused of skewing results from the conspiracy theorists..

We do A LOT of testing and the end of the day what we test that works goes on our cars.. Simnple as that.. If we dont beleive in something it doesnt go on the car.. You can be sure if you find a part on our car its not cause it was given free.. Gadiel tested a couple intakes and is now running the driven on his car.. Im confident he is smart enough to run what he knows is best not what someone decided to give him free.. It was already said he paid full price for everything.. He has provided plenty of data IMO..

Mike

 

Im agree with you mike!