Repeatability of the Dyno Flash - long term study data and dyno sheet
Oct 22, 2003, 11:03 PM
#46
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Originally posted by SAEVO
So the word on the EVO is the ECU does no relearn its old traits???
So the word on the EVO is the ECU does no relearn its old traits???
Oct 22, 2003, 11:08 PM
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How do 10.5:1, 11.0:1, and 12.0:1 AF ratios translate in negative (- %) numbers in S-AFC/S-AFC II terms? How about with a boost controller holding up 19-20 psi to redline? This is with 93 octance
How low can we go?
Thanks.
Sti
How low can we go?
Thanks.
Sti
Oct 22, 2003, 11:19 PM
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Al, do you recommend having a SAFC to tune or not? Also, what boost controller do you recommend HKS or Blitz? Thanks.
PS. When are you coming to LA so I can get my car tuned
PS. When are you coming to LA so I can get my car tuned
Last edited by EVO_RPM; Oct 22, 2003 at 11:24 PM.
Oct 23, 2003, 06:41 AM
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Originally posted by EVO_RPM
Al, do you recommend having a SAFC to tune or not? Also, what boost controller do you recommend HKS or Blitz? Thanks.
PS. When are you coming to LA so I can get my car tuned
Al, do you recommend having a SAFC to tune or not? Also, what boost controller do you recommend HKS or Blitz? Thanks.
PS. When are you coming to LA so I can get my car tuned
However since it acts by atenuating the MAF signal the ecu sees that as less load
What happens is that as your leanning it out you get very advanced timing which causes a lot of knock activity and the ecu starts to pull out timing in certain areas up and down the fuel curve - this leaves you with a very bumpy power band - and a dyno sheet which looks like radio interference
The Dyno Flash is superior as our fuel adjustments do not effect load or timing and visa versa Therefore we can really keep the power band smooth and in most cases get it much smoother than stock - WHILE we increase the power output
I would recomend a piggy back unit in CONJUNCTION WITH the Dyno Flash as follows
Piggy back set to ZERO correction on street fuel with Dyno flash - normal operation
Race fuel set up - Piggy back set to 5 - 8 % corrections from 4,000 to red line with Dyno Flash yields and additional 20 whp over the standard Dyno Flash set up
Finally - a piggy back could be used easily for end user fine tuning of the Dyno Flashed ecu in the event the end user later adds future modifications which effect the MAF signal
NOTE - such adjustments in all cases should only be performed by EXPERIENCED persons with the proper equipment - eg - wideband O2 sesnsor and egt gague
Hope that helps
Oct 23, 2003, 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by Eric Lyublinsky
Al,
Explain the A/F readings on that dyno sheet. Why are they all over the place?
Not attacking you just would like to know why are they like that.
Eric
Al,
Explain the A/F readings on that dyno sheet. Why are they all over the place?
Not attacking you just would like to know why are they like that.
Eric
We have also discovered that the KEY to getting Evos to run well is to run under the knock threshold detection of the stock knock sensor
By running the car rich and even richer at certain points in the power band we have been able to get our cars to run absent any detonation across the power band
This means the stock ecu is NOT pulling timing in certain areas and it also means we do not have to also pull timing to avoid the knock correction
We have found that you FEEL the ign timing corrections much more than the fuel corrections. There is almost no loss in engine power going from 10.8 / 1 and dipping down to 10.4 / 1 a/f ratio
- BUT - if you pull back even one degree of timing you will see a big jump on the dyno sheet
Everyone has his/her own method of tuning - it would be EASY for us just to run these cars lean like some other tuners and have the a/f curve look like a straight line at 12.00 /1 accross the board - but then our dyno POWER lines would not be as smooth - although they would prob be making 5 - 10 whp more at that lean an a/f
In setting our tunes - we strive for a smooth perceived power band; a linear gain of power to red line and most importantly a very SUPER safe rich a/f ratio which helps cool down the engine and promote a huge margin of saftey
Oct 24, 2003, 06:30 AM
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Originally posted by DynoFlash
We have seen that painting a solid a/f ratio line straight across the dyno screen may LOOK wonderful in marketing materials - but in reality the engine does NOT need the same A/F ratio at all speeds and loads
We have also discovered that the KEY to getting Evos to run well is to run under the knock threshold detection of the stock knock sensor
By running the car rich and even richer at certain points in the power band we have been able to get our cars to run absent any detonation across the power band
This means the stock ecu is NOT pulling timing in certain areas and it also means we do not have to also pull timing to avoid the knock correction
We have found that you FEEL the ign timing corrections much more than the fuel corrections. There is almost no loss in engine power going from 10.8 / 1 and dipping down to 10.4 / 1 a/f ratio
- BUT - if you pull back even one degree of timing you will see a big jump on the dyno sheet
Everyone has his/her own method of tuning - it would be EASY for us just to run these cars lean like some other tuners and have the a/f curve look like a straight line at 12.00 /1 accross the board - but then our dyno POWER lines would not be as smooth - although they would prob be making 5 - 10 whp more at that lean an a/f
In setting our tunes - we strive for a smooth perceived power band; a linear gain of power to red line and most importantly a very SUPER safe rich a/f ratio which helps cool down the engine and promote a huge margin of saftey
We have seen that painting a solid a/f ratio line straight across the dyno screen may LOOK wonderful in marketing materials - but in reality the engine does NOT need the same A/F ratio at all speeds and loads
We have also discovered that the KEY to getting Evos to run well is to run under the knock threshold detection of the stock knock sensor
By running the car rich and even richer at certain points in the power band we have been able to get our cars to run absent any detonation across the power band
This means the stock ecu is NOT pulling timing in certain areas and it also means we do not have to also pull timing to avoid the knock correction
We have found that you FEEL the ign timing corrections much more than the fuel corrections. There is almost no loss in engine power going from 10.8 / 1 and dipping down to 10.4 / 1 a/f ratio
- BUT - if you pull back even one degree of timing you will see a big jump on the dyno sheet
Everyone has his/her own method of tuning - it would be EASY for us just to run these cars lean like some other tuners and have the a/f curve look like a straight line at 12.00 /1 accross the board - but then our dyno POWER lines would not be as smooth - although they would prob be making 5 - 10 whp more at that lean an a/f
In setting our tunes - we strive for a smooth perceived power band; a linear gain of power to red line and most importantly a very SUPER safe rich a/f ratio which helps cool down the engine and promote a huge margin of saftey
I see what you are trying to do (I don’t know if it’s right or wrong, just different from my understanding of Engine tuning). Now correct me if I’m wrong. You are trying to get the smoothes TQ across the board and trying to maintain as Much TQ as you can at the higher RPM ranges. But what you are really doing is taking a motor past its reliability threshold. The motor is making so much TQ at those higher RPM ranges that it really takes a beating. Yes there is no knock and the exhaust temps are cool but the bearings, Rods and pistons are getting hammered. And basically the candle starts to burn much quicker. Engine Management can accomplish many things but there is a fine line that the tuner has the draw for long engine life. I will be impressed when your beta tester comes back in 10K miles and puts the same numbers down. I will also be more impressed if you did a compression and leak down test now and again in 10K miles. Two weeks and a few hundred miles in my mind does not mean long term beta tester. Granted the car did not blow up in two weeks and a few hundred miles and made a full pony more (due possibly to the cooler weather) so my hats off to you.
I will say one thing in regards to your beta tester making the same power. After a car is tuned on a dyno, many hot runs with heat soak and drive train heat and not having enough air going into the motor the last run will read a little low. And if you wear to bring that car back after cool down and warm it up to standard operating tempters it would pull at the least a few more ponies just because the heat soak is gone. Gaining 1 horse power with a drop in out side temp of 20f is not impressive. Looks to me like the car is losing power already and the candle is burning quicker and quicker.
Please comment, Yet again not trying to attack you just trying to learn as much as I can.
Oct 24, 2003, 07:47 AM
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Originally posted by Eric Lyublinsky
You are trying to get the smoothes TQ across the board and trying to maintain as Much TQ as you can at the higher RPM ranges. But what you are really doing is taking a motor past its reliability threshold. The motor is making so much TQ at those higher RPM ranges that it really takes a beating. Yes there is no knock and the exhaust temps are cool but the bearings, Rods and pistons are getting hammered. And basically the candle starts to burn much quicker. Engine Management can accomplish many things but there is a fine line that the tuner has the draw for long engine life.
You are trying to get the smoothes TQ across the board and trying to maintain as Much TQ as you can at the higher RPM ranges. But what you are really doing is taking a motor past its reliability threshold. The motor is making so much TQ at those higher RPM ranges that it really takes a beating. Yes there is no knock and the exhaust temps are cool but the bearings, Rods and pistons are getting hammered. And basically the candle starts to burn much quicker. Engine Management can accomplish many things but there is a fine line that the tuner has the draw for long engine life.
Any time you add more HP/TQ to an engine, you're technically "overpowering" the engine from what it was orginally designed for from the factory. So not only is Dynoflash doing what you state above, but so is Vishnu, Buschur, etc etc.
This, I thought was common sense.
Oct 24, 2003, 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by BeenWaitin4Evo
What difference does it make if Dynoflash improves the HP/TQ of the engine versus adding an exhaust that adds more HP/TQ?
Any time you add more HP/TQ to an engine, you're technically "overpowering" the engine from what it was orginally designed for from the factory. So not only is Dynoflash doing what you state above, but so is Vishnu, Buschur, etc etc.
This, I thought was common sense.
What difference does it make if Dynoflash improves the HP/TQ of the engine versus adding an exhaust that adds more HP/TQ?
Any time you add more HP/TQ to an engine, you're technically "overpowering" the engine from what it was orginally designed for from the factory. So not only is Dynoflash doing what you state above, but so is Vishnu, Buschur, etc etc.
This, I thought was common sense.
Eric
Oct 24, 2003, 08:09 AM
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If you start with 271HP and add 50HP to it, you've increased the power irregardless of how you added it. 5, 10, or 50 more HP is adding more stress to the engine, no matter if it's through exhaust, flash, or piggyback.
Oct 24, 2003, 08:18 AM
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Originally posted by BeenWaitin4Evo
If you start with 271HP and add 50HP to it, you've increased the power irregardless of how you added it. 5, 10, or 50 more HP is adding more stress to the engine, no matter if it's through exhaust, flash, or piggyback.
If you start with 271HP and add 50HP to it, you've increased the power irregardless of how you added it. 5, 10, or 50 more HP is adding more stress to the engine, no matter if it's through exhaust, flash, or piggyback.
Eric