rACerS

iTrader: (9)

Anyone else here care to help out this dumb ****? Do yourself a favor and call NOS, Nitrous Express, or Nitrous works and ask them the difference between a wet and dry kit. Zex is a new nitrous system that actually has a brain that adds the right amount of nitrous and fuel through 2 different nozzles. And no a wet kit doesnt inject nitrous and fuel through the same nozzle. Once again you are a complete dip **** that can only regurgitate what you think others have said in the past. Please do yourself a favor and talk to someone who actually knows about nitrous.

rACerS

iTrader: (9)

A wet system has a fuel solenoid and a nitrous solenoid. So...the extra fuel that is needed when spraying nitrous is supplied through a solenoid and a jet. With a dry system you only supply nitrous to the engine but the nitrous is routed through the MAF sensor so that your engine's fuel injectors are instructed to supply the additional fuel. Your fuel pump must be up to the task in either case but your injectors must also be up to the task with a dry system.
The cons of a wet kit are that you have a fuel 'noid and if it fails, disaster, only one N2O 'noid (if it sticks wide open, disaster), fuel is not distributed as efficiently or evenly, fuel can puddle in the intake manifold (which was never meant to flow fuel saturated air) and cause an intake backfire, bottle pressure is crucial because it affects the fuel/air ratio, if the bottle goes empty during a run or the N2O flow is stopped for any reason your car goes extremely rich, and tuning is not done by the computer

chuntington101

Back to the cooling issue here, why not use a water spray? These systems have been tested throughout the rallying world, to huge success. In fact, the Scooby 22B had one as standard (not shore about the Evo) and people that I have heard from that have done DIY kits say they work great. They are dead cheap and easy to make (a switch, pump, piping, tank and a jet) and from memory water ahs a higher specific heat capacity than any gas so should be better in this role. On the intake front, even if some water gets into the intake then it will actually help, reducing combustion temps and helping with pinking!

P.S. dont try to reinvent the wheel!!!

slowTsi

NITROUS OXIDE GENERAL &
TECHNICAL INFORMATION


Types of NOS Systems
An Overview Of Wet, Dry And Direct Port Systems
These are three basic types of nitrous systems: dry, wet, and direct port. The most misunderstood is the "dry" type of system. A "dry" nitrous system simply means that the fuel required to make additional power with nitrous will be introduced through the fuel injectors (remember, fuel makes power, nitrous simply lets you burn more of it). This keeps the upper intake dry of fuel. We accomplish this by two methods. First, is to increase the pressure to the injectors by applying nitrous pressure from the solenoid assembly when the system is activated. This causes an increase in fuel flow just like turning up the pressure on your garden hose from 1/2 to full. The second way we can add the required fuel is to increase the time the fuel injector stays on. This is accomplished by changing what the computer sees, basically tricking the computer into adding the required fuel. In either case, once the fuel has been added, the nitrous can be introduced to burn the supplemental fuel and generate additional power.
The second type of nitrous kit is the "wet" style of kit. These kits include carburetor plate systems and add nitrous and fuel at the same time and place (normally 3-4" ahead of the throttle body for fuel injected applications or just under the carb as with plate systems). This type of system will make the upper intake wet with fuel. These systems are best used with intakes designed for wet flow and turbo/supercharged applications.


The last type of system is the direct port system. Just as it's name implies, it introduces the nitrous and fuel directly into each intake port on an engine. These systems will normally add the nitrous and fuel together through a fogger nozzle or a NOSzleTM. The fogger nozzle mixes and meters the nitrous and fuel delivered to each cylinder. This is the most powerful and one of the most accurate type of systems. This is due to the placement of the nozzle in each runner, as well as the ability to use more and higher capacity solenoid valves. A direct port system will have a distribution block and solenoid assembly which delivers the nitrous and fuel to the nozzles by way of connecting tubes. Because each cylinder has a specific nozzle and jetting (both nitrous and fuel), it is possible to control the nitrous/fuel ratio for one cylinder without changing that of the other cylinders. These systems are also one of the more complicated systems when installation is considered, as the intake must be drilled, tapped, and the "plumbing" made to clear any existing obstructions. Because of this and the high output of these systems, they are most often used on racing vehicles built for the strain of such high horsepower levels.


CONTINUE READING

What else do you want to know dip ****. This is from NOS/Holley's OWN WEBSITE. This is exactly as I stated it to you yet you fail to understand. You want me to hold your hand and spoon feed you any more info to prove your dumb *** wrong??? If the diagrams didn't come with the clip then you can go to the website and look for your self. It has the nitrous being injected directly before the throttle body in both wet/dry kits. Geez I hate stupid people. I'm tired of taking up a thread to deal with a ****ing stupid person. I do like making you look stupid in front of other members.

nonmature

ok first off I've used nitrous on every car I've owned which would be a 350z and a 2000 lude and both of them where dry... they were both introduced BEFORE the MAF sensor so that the computer will know to add MORE fuel... I also converted my Z to a wet system... this was introduced after the MAF sensor because the computer does not need to see anything because no changes should be made... (the correct amount of fuel is already being introduced...

and slowtsi to your statement about on a dry kit fuel is introduced through the injectors you are right but the nozzle for the nitrous should be before the maf so that the computer KNOWS to spray the additional fuel...

-non

and damn it does anyone know the answer to my original question about the oval fitting for the Ntercooler and if it is availible to be sold by itself

slowTsi

You should read the articles I posted. Both of them state that the fuel is injected through the injectors by increasing the pressure in the rail. That is the only one I have seen it installed and the way both the holley/nos and zex sites describe it. The systems have a means of blocking the return line to raise the pressure in the tank. That is why you need a strong pump so it can support that pressure and still flow enough fuel. The diagrams also show placement of the jet(s) very close to the throttle body. I ask you not to believe me if you don't want to. Just do the research. Did you install the kit yourself to know you had no other control of the fuel?? Even if said system does exist I doubt it would be a good idea to run any nos system pre-turbo. Why don't you link me to one of these magical kits that use the maf to meter the nos and add fuel with no other mods. I have posted 2 sources from the manufacturers that indicate I am right.

chuntington101

Why oh why do you want to use a gas as a cooling agent? Using one in a closed loop set up (ie like air con) I could see the point of but why use gas. And NO2 of all things, why not just throw money at the intercooler and see if that makes a difference? I admit, you will see some gains on low boost application, but on higher setups where charge temps are higher there is no point. Why not just fit a lager intercooler anyway? This will give you the reduced charge temp, all the time, never need refilling and should weigh a lot less. Please, just use NO2 for what it was intended (yes as laughing gas, or as a O2 carrierļ) and leave the cooling stuff to tried and tested methods.

Turbocake

Geez… so much Jackassery! going on here. Time for some fun…

They. Key word, buddy… THEY. Zex has a completely different method of supplying the N2O and fuel, so your argument is the equivelant of “Chevy doesn’t make an EVO, so it doesn’t exist!”. Your blatantly false final sentence is a wonderful display of how to pack 2 pages of bull**** into 8 words.

Maybe you read a Zex ad and thought you knew something about nitrous. Either way, there are plenty of nitrous “tubes” (jets, nozzles) aimed right at MAF meters and they usually ARE attached to the filter housing or found somewhere in the inlet hose of the intake system AHEAD of the MAF… so I guess I’m wondering what your point is.

I hate you internet dumbasses. And besides, smart/dumb ***-ness aside, how are you any different? Your *** is posting on the internet (too) and you’re failing miserably to make even ONE solid point. I have yet to quote more than 3 consecutive sentences of yours before finding some reason to rip you a new ***. You should just give up.



Don’t need to because I could have written them. How many nitrous systems have you studied? How many have you installed? (these aren’t rhetorical questions, I honestly want to know).


Raising the fuel pressure is not always a necessity. Depends on the car and the fuel system’s overall capability. Some systems can deliver enough fuel with the stock fuel system, they just blow the nitrous through the MAF meter (EFI lesson: MAF meters usually measure airflow by the cooling effect it has on a heated filament, meaning nitrous' coldness reads as LOTS of incoming air, hence the stock fuel system's {for certain cars at least} capability to compensate)

Are you pumping air up your *** and having someone transcribe into english what they hear coming out? Man, you’re wearing me out. It’s like digging out of a 10 foot ****storm. Ok, in simple terms, you’re grossly mis-stating the widely varying functions of ALL nitrous systems because of your incorrect interpretation of how a few of them work; the jets can go almost anywhere (obviated by the direct-port method that even YOU speak of). Restricting the return line isn’t always necessary (in fact, it’s quite uncommon unless you have a blower and an FMU) and PLEASE don’t tell me that you actually believe the TANK gets pressurized because of this!

It’s the fuel line between the pump and the restriction that gets pressurized; where the fuel rails feed the injectors with the extra pressure that artificially raises a given injector’s flow rating for a given duty cycle.


Why? Does the inlet side of the blower heat up to 572 degrees F?


http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin...NOSNS/GM2.html




Nowhere near as bothersome a post, but still worthy of a response:

Because it’s compressed to the point of being a liquid and when it’s turned back into a gas, it’s incredibly cold.



Really? How exactly would that work? A closed loop would mean that you would need to somehow regenerate a cooling effect (like air con) meaning you would need some sort of pump or compressor (like air con) that would cost you power (like air con) which would probably negate any benefits of having it blow cold stuff in the first place because to blow cold on one spot means you heat up another (like air con).


See above, and please use question marks at the end of questions.


I could be wrong, but probably because nitrous (as a gas being sold to the go-fast crowd) is so available and if someone so chose, they could have some nitrous hit the IC or some go into the motor to make power, or both, or they could switch back and forth between the two periodically (winter vs. summer). Come to think of it, I haven’t seen any “Carbon Dioxide” dry kits out there, so I guess you’d be stuck buying a nitrous kit if you wanted cold gas of any kind and if you sprung for the nice hardware why not use the juice it was made for?


Are they teaching this **** in school or something? Did you actually mean to type that? I’ll walk you through it… The more boost you have, the HIGHER the temp of your IC, the more DIFFERENCE there is between it’s temp and (nevermind ambient air) the cold-*** gas you’d be blowing on it, meaning it would have MORE of an effect.



Show me a larger cooler that fits PERFECTLY in place of the stock one (no cutting or trimming of any parts, just bolt it in) that makes a significant difference over the stocker, and costs less than a mid-level dry nitrous kit. And even if you do, I’ll still argue that Mr. Nitrous-shot-on-the-FMIC can still shoot that **** into his intake and make even more power than the super-duper FMIC that probably doesn’t even exist in the first place.

Good point, but I’d personally rather use nitrous (though I never would) than cut up my bumper or rig some big honkin IC up in place of the stocker. What happens when you impale that expensive **** with a sparrow at 130?

Whoa, a surviving member of the Flat Earth Society. You stick to the same old game plan, Grandpa (I’m surprised you know what a computer is, much less how to use one) and when someone blows your doors because they had the ***** to try something new, remember your closing line up there.

slowTsi

Turbo cake:
I don't know why you feel you have to be a jack *** when my examples are still correct. Both zex and nos say thre exact same thind and i linked the articles to my post. The only difference in the zex system is that it is computer controlled to monitor bottle pressure so it can alter the fuel pressure/ipw in the appropriate amount. That's the only difference with the zex kits.

The link you posted doesn't specify where to install the nozzle. It just staes that it uses the factory efi, which it still would if it were to raise the pressure in the rail or modify the ipw. If you read the tech info on the nos/holley site IT SHOWS A DIAGRAM OF EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING(yes, even for a dry kit).

I have only helped with the install of three kits. Not very many but probably 3 more then most of the people on these boards. None of them were injected prior to the maf. I don't think I ever said " it can never be done" and I even asked for proof of the system, i.e. a picture of nos being injected before the maf with no other means of controlling fuel. Pus even if it could it would be MUCH more beneficial post turbo to better cool the intake charge. If said system does exist, it probably just cools the element so much that it takes it out of the sensores range and dumps fuel as a safety method. Not sure but I am sure you could see the gas coooling the sensor too much.

None of the info I posted is incorrect. Maybe I didn't elaborate enough on some things but I take some people understandind basic things for granted(like the fuel pump statemnt). If you could have written the tech articles then you would know they are correct. no where on either site does it state that the maf will meter the nitrous correctly. You point me to that phrase oh great nitrous master as I like to learn new stuff. But untill then you can suck on my ball sack buddy.

Erico BR

CO2 (-78.5C) is used in intercooler sprays because its way cheaper than NO2 (dunno the temp , but its cooler than CO2)

Hmmm..how about N2(-150C,one of the coolest around)?

if i do an air chiller on a non turbocharged car , could i gain some power??? (my prev post explains my idea)



Cheers from Brazil....

Erico

Turbocake

Ok, you argue like a stubborn ***** who can’t admit she’s wrong, so I’m going to pin you down like one and dangle my literary sack in your face so the prickly whiskers make your nose itch.

This seems to be the meat of what you keep referring to. The last thing this paragraph mentions is “tricking” the computer. I contend that this is done by spraying the juice upwind of a MAF meter. You seem to disagree, so here you go:

This shot plainly shows the nitrous setup installed to shoot into the airlid (the air cleaner box) which is before the MAF meter.



and while this pic quality sucks, it clearly indicates that the juice is getting shot before the MAF, just like the above setup.



And in case you still somehow doubt what I say (you’ve been an unbelievably ignorant **** thus far), here is THE quintessential kit that shows just how quick and easy a dry shot can be, a la injection prior to the MAF:

http://www.speedlogic.net/partz_week...tz_week_03.htm

And although I’ve totally **** on your argument, I get the feeling that your response will be
“It doesn’t actually SAY that the juice is being red by the MAF.”

My answer: you must need labels on your shoestrings that say “tie me” (they’re probably labeled “left” and “right” too); Life doesn’t revolve around what’s explicitly stated in an owners manual/product description, so the sooner you stop being a copy-and-paste poster child and wake up to the reality of what people are running out there, the sooner people will stop calling you a dumb****, Dumb****.

I supposed your “always broken” heap of **** is waiting for the “how to fix you’re always broken heap of **** for dummies” manual to be published. Get a ****ing clue.

Conversely…

The other thing your copy/paste article mentions is using the “nitrous pressure from the solenoid assembly” to boost pressure to the fuel injectors. I had to read this twice to believe they printed it… I trust you really did copy this from a mfr. site, but my point is that, although it is in print, I don’t believe it. I think this is impossible (I could be wrong, but I don’t think so); You’re all about me proving my points, which I’ve done thus far, so “checkmate”, *****, prove yours. Let’s hear some specifics about how “nitrous pressure from the solenoid assembly” is going to boost fuel pressure in a dry kit. I’d be impressed if you could actually find out how it works and paraphrase it. I’d be shocked if you found pics of an example, but what I really would rather skip is you posting some grey-area copy/paste text saying **** about garden hoses, and especially some infomercial type definition like: “we increase the fuel pressure by channeling the nitrous pressure through the flux capacitor, then we hydrogenate it with a rapid-fire polymer who’s reactive kinematics increase the velocity characteristics ten-fold, thereby magically increasing the net fuel delivery in perfect proportion to the amount of bull**** in this sentence.”

Turbocake

in case it begins to appear that im only out to be a dick, here is a pretty interesting setup some folks are using for the original topic:

http://www.jmsproductsinc.com/import.html

Erico, sounds like dioxide would be the **** to use, but what about some of it getting inhaled by the engine? Shooting enough to cool **** down is going to be the equivelant of aiming a fire extinguisher at your air filter.

chuntington101

Turbocake, chill, try some N2O (hehe). No, only joking. Your points are good and I agree, some of the stuff I said is, how shall I put it, a little stone age (but I am only 20 so less of the granddad please). The thing is there is no miracle solution to this problem that will work for all, and at the end of the day, you spend your money on what you want.
That over and done with back to the issues. I get the point about gas being cold, but I think that you would get a much cooler inlet charge if you cooled the charge with the N2O directly, ie by spraying it into the inlet track. Here it can be used as it was intended, you get the very cool charge (that’s much cooler than using it to cool air to cool more air, just cut out the middle man), and all the benefits of using N2O.
The air con thing is a none starter anyway. You would use more energy cooling the coolant than you would get extra from the system. But you could use compressed CO2 (which is not a liquid when compressed as it is either a gas or a solid, never a liquid) in an OPEN system. This would enable you to cool the charge, but not let any into the intake. This would actually be more effective than the intercooler thing as its effect is direct on the charge.
Sorry about the crap punctuation. English was never my strong point at school.
You haven’t seen any dry CO2 kits because there aren’t any. I don’t believe it I my be coming out of the dark ages (hehe).
On the high boost thing, your right, I’m wrong, there you are I said it!
I don’t get the thing about the larger intercooler. You may have to cut the bumper but it saves on weight and recharging you gas 2/3 times a week!
The sparrow thing, well they should get out the F***ing way!
A new point, you could always pack the intercooler with dry ice (solid CO2)!


P.S. this stuff is great please don’t let this thread die, keep up the debate as this is where people come up with new ideas and it gives you chance to bounce them around off other people.

chuntington101

On a N/A application I think that the difference would be negligible. You’d be better of with throttle bodies and a cold air feed. thats what most of the racers/ track dayers run in the UK

Erico BR

In case of CO2 inhaled, the engine will not even start.My idea is CO2 or N2 inside of a serpentine, ending in front of radiator..im building it .Started this week.I will use a secondary air intake tube(with 4 or more serpentines inside)linked to the main intake.If this thing works ill post here.
Imagine a gas running -109.3F(or -238F in case of N2) inside these serpentines cooling an air intake tube.
The lenght of this tube is about 2 meters "U" shaped.
The benefit of this system is pure air cooled instead of NO2 (poorer in N2 , causing engine heat).
Of course it will not make a kick like Nitrous systems, but is one more idea to get more power.
Id like to get more ideas , if you ppl could help me.. ill be very glad.
PS:Opel Calibra 95 2.0 16v 150cv (non turbocharged)
Cheers