Jeffs2006EVOIX

Hello Guys and Gals,

I am just curious why many Evo Tuners and Builders recommend 20/50W oil?

Now, for obvious reasons, like a built motor, looser than OEM specs, etc can be understood. As can High Speed Driving like a Redline Time Attack.

But for DD duty, running an Evo with all the Bolt on's, and Cams, with an OEM block, OEM trubo, why would 20/50 be recommended?

Wouldn't a 30W be ideal for quicker spool up, and better cooling of the metal parts by increased circulation of the lighter weight oil?

We are all if not most using a synthetic oil that should hold up to 100C oil temps all day long. So why the 50W?

Does the thicker oil get squirted through the oil squirters as well too?

Just curious guys and gals. Not trying to start an Oil Comparo here or anything, just want the justification for the 50W oil in a DD car.

Just seems all the oil research I have done seems that the 30W would be the way to go. Is it wise to jump up 2 oil weights like that?


Thanks For your time

sparky

iTrader: (1)

What about a 5W-40 for a stock motor?

cssaddictm4

iTrader: (13)

Where have you found that 20/50 is recommended for a DD with a stock motor?

AMS recommends 10/40 for stock motors and 20/50 for built motors.

EvocentriK

SAE30 is pretty thin since evo oil temps are around 92*C on the street and over 110*C + on the track with the standard engine/turbo and standard oil cooler.

The Mobil1 10W-30 is not even real synthetic anymore, so no one should be using that. From my reading many people use a xW-40 in street evos and xW-50 on the track.

cij911

iTrader: (14)

A 50W is too thick for OEM tolerances and will actually decrease your HP. I did back to back testing on the dyno and lost 25+ whp with a 50 weight (Mobil 1 15-50 vs. Mobil 1 10-30). I repeated the test because some JA on here challenged my results and they were almost identical to my first test.

I know others will come on a say no way, but everyone has access to data loggers and dyno simulators, so to those that disagree or don't believe do the test yourself....

C6C6CH3vo

iTrader: (9)

Do you recall if the result was boost related? or any other details between the differences of results from the two weights of oil, like it made more of an impact on HP or TQ?

very interested

stryderlis

iTrader: (17)

Mobile 1 Extended Performance is I think.

cij911

iTrader: (14)

It was not boost related as I log boost. Boost may have come on later (I'll have to go look at the logs), but the car was definitely slower by just seat of the pants. The dyno confirmed peak tq was down ~40 ft lbs + and ~ 40 whp + . Most of the curve was off 25+ hp.

EvocentriK

So is a xW-30 oil appropriate for a street evo with stock bottom end? Mitsubishi thought so when they built the 8/9 (not sure about the 10)

I checked the what oil do you use poll of a few years ago and most used the factory M1 10w-30, I wonder if this is still the case?

There's a few good oils in the SAE30 range, Castrol Syntec 0W-30, Amsoil SSO etc.

andrewzaragoza

iTrader: (6)

if you want to use M1 i suggest using the high mileage version as that has more zinc & phos. or the EP one which has more of that super syn(i think thats their detergent package and friction modifiers).

Jeffs2006EVOIX

Not sure what kind of driving you do where your oil temps are that high. Even where I live, here in the SoCal Desert, where temps hover around 120F for 3 months straight did I see temps that high. For me in the heat of summer, in traffic, with the A/C on I would see 90-95C. 30W ideal temp range is 100C so the 30W is fine for this heat range in moderation. If you are pushing the car hard, and these temps over 100C on a regualar basis, then yes, a 40W may be better, but its a catch 22 really. Its not that simple. The 30W has so many advantages over 40/50W as was mentioned.

As for Mobil 1 not being a "true" synthetic any longer? That is completely false. No one can prove that at all, and Mobil 1 is the "benchmark" in synthetics and has been for years. Even Amsoils #1 competitor is who? Mobil 1. Who does Amsoil always compare to? Mobil 1, why? Because they are the "benchmark". Mobil IS a synthetic oil The speculation is now that some of their new formulations are Group 3 base stocks insead of PAO or Ester. Thing is, ALL OIL Companies sell a line of products with a Group 3 basestock. It doesn't mean that ALL of Mobil 1's or All of Amsoil's or ALL of Penzoils oils are Group 3. A good example is the new Penzoil Ultra. That is Penzoils top of the line synthetic oil, it is a Group 3 oil. Group 3 is fine, its only draw back is cold and that is where the PAO's get added.

Anyway, Mobil 1 is an excellent oil. I do use it yes., But I have also used Amsoil, Royal Purple as well in past Evo's. They are ALL good Synthetic oils. Mobil 1 EP "extended performance" is PAO and Ester based, and for those that want a little more ZDDP, the Mobil 1 HM "high mileage" has more ZDDP and is a PAO based oil as well.

I know this can be seen as an oil debate, and for one, I don't mind one because this is how we learn. Where things get hairy is when people throw out stuff like "mine is better" or "this oil is best" There simply is no such thing. So if anyone can bring some really good insight to the post, I am all for it. I have been debating oil for some time now. It is the most misunderstood essential part of our cars. I don't even think the Engine builders really know to be honest. I think they play it safe and use thicker oils for their built motors, and also keep in mind that most "built" motors are RACED, where oil temps are very high, so the 40/50W oils to come into play in that areana.

I agree with the post that 50W loses HP on a OEM block, I did my own dyno numbers too, wasn't intended on just being an oil comparo at the time, but when I would have a tune done, I would take note of the HP and TQ with the mods at the time. As I switched back to a 30W you see the HP increase as well as TQ, with quicker spool of the turbo. Again, this is on an OEM block and OEM turbo.

I currently use Mobil 1 EP 10/30. Why the EP? The EP has 50% more supersyn in it vs the standard Mobil 1. Additonally, it has a higher PAO base plus more Ester in it (supersyn). Now, I know many people are all into the ZDDP issue. Problem is, ZDDP really only comes into play when there is a "shearing" of the oil. The Evo is blessed with Roller Rockers and hydrolic lifters and the shear of the oil in the Valvetrain just really isn't seen. Even with Race Cams. The Turbo journals of the OEM turbo as well, its just not a place that oil "shears". So having all this ZDDP is good but for what? Again, if people on this board can actually explain why and where more ZDDP is needed in the Evo I would love to hear it. Especially on a stock block and stock turbo.

We all want what is best for our Evo, but that also makes us very gulable. Someone can say "your car needs this certain oil" and its $10-$15 per qt. I have no problem paying that BUT why do I need to? Tell me why it will help my car. If the Mobil 1 5 qt jug at walmart for $25 can protect the engine just as well???

So lets see what people have to say. I know allot of this "debate" may be theory based, but even then, if the "theory" is one that is realisitc and believable, then that would be nice to hear.

EvocentriK

My evo is essentially stock, and on a warm day, say 26*C, driving normally giving it a little here and there my oil temp is around 92*C as I said. I'm not thrashing the car at all. On a local aussie forum, quite a few guys posted their track oil temps as 110-115-120+ *C depending on car/setup etc. Multiple people all over 110*C. It's not just me and it's not just my word you are taking, but if you don't believe its normal for evo's to run that high there's nothing I can do to convince you. Just ask some guys that actually track their cars and see what they say.

The reading I have done indicates the standard M1 10/30 (not the EP) is hydrocracked Group 3, which according to the rules in Australia, cannot be marketed as fully synthetic oil because its not made in a lab, its mineral oil that has been altered. Two totally different things. I don't know what the rules are in the US, but I thought it could be marketed there as full syn, but I am not certain.

The EP may well be full syn, I don't know, I use the 0W-40 which as far as anyone knows is full syn, and it shears down to a SAE30 anyway, so once that occurs, and in most vehicles it occurs quite fast, I'm not losing much if any power from using it. I don't know enough about the additives to argue the ZDDP more less/SL vs SM thing, we know there's more to it than just higher ZDDP level = better protection. Look at the wear numbers GC pulls with it's 'not high' ZDDP level.

I'd happily use an SAE30 oil if my oil temps weren't so close to 100*C. From what I can see, GC (and many SAE30's) shear to around 10.5-11.0 cSt and the M1 0W-40 shears to around 11.0-12.1 cSt hence I went with the latter.

Jeffs2006EVOIX

I would like to see the info you have that M1 "you feel" is Group 3 Oil. I have seen nothing online that proves that, not even on BITOG web site. As for the Oil temps, I can't speak for "others" just myself. I too live in a very hot climate, probably as hot as areas where you live. 120F+ for months straight, not dipping below 90F for 8 months straight. I have in the past AutoX'd my Evo, and I have never ever seen oil temps over 105C Ever. It could just be that some people do not keep their oil cooler condensor clean, thus the heat is not being transferred efficiently. I clean my religiously to keep the bugs and drbris off the oil cooler. Everyone has different driving styles, modifications, and maintenance schedules on their cars. That is the reason why there is so much variance in numbers from people.

Again, would love to see where you have seen any info giving you any idea that M1 is a Group 3 oil. Especially since they were the ones who sued Castrol for claiming group 3's were "synthetic" to begin with. All the info I have read, plus contacting M1 myself all show its a group 4 PAO oil.

As for M1 0-40 shearing, that has been up on BITOG website and is just "theory" as M1 denies that the oil actual shears. Email them, they will tell you that. Any oil with a 40 point spread may have a tendacy to shear, who knows. That goes for any Oil brand. The larger the number spread, the more additives are needed. Its the additives that lose out, not the oil base stocks. Keep in mind, most cars, including the Evo that come from the factory stock require a 30w, which at peak temp 100C is about 10.5 viscosity. Which is where I am sure Mitsubishi Engineers wanted the oil to be at, at temp. That is what the tolerences require. GC is a good oil, and is on the thicker viscosity side for sure for a 30. It seems Mitsubishi likes a smallest point spread as possible. Only reason I can see is there are less additves in the oil itself. Keeping the oil within a 20-25 point spread seems to be what Mits likes. On a OEM car.


I have ran several brands of oil in Evo's of the past, Amsoil, Mobil 1, Royal Purple, and I have been emailing back and forth with Dave at Redline about the possible use of Redline in my car. Dave is recommending a 5/30 in my Evo. YES a 5/30 on my Evo, OEM block, OEM turbo, making 320whp. With OEM tolerences, you really don't need much more than a 30w, 40w tops and if you argue that, then you need to ask around some more. Folks running 50w or higher on OEM spec engines are losing power, and thicker oil does not necessarily "cool" the car any better. Actually lighter weights cool better. But Oil is a topic I can go into for days. I just want the Gurus here to post up to why use a 50W in a Stock OEM spec block and turbo? Just was curious to why is all.

There is no reason to Convince me of anything, I have owned 3 Evo's over the years, have tuned, raced, and had all kinds of fun with them. I have learned what works and what doesn't from my own experience. So I don't need to be convinced of anything. To each is their own, what works for one, may not for another. There are WAY TOO MANY variables to be had to why cars run warmer than others.

M1 0-40 is a very good oil from what I have read. For the same money though, I may give the Redline a try. I just have never ran an Ester based (group 5) oil before. So I am not sure what to expect. I have always run PAO based oils. So I am debating to do it or not. I was considering the use of the 0-40 M1 because so many people seem to like it, and its UOA's look pretty good. So I am still on the fence on that one. Im not due for an oil change for 2K more miles, so I have time to think about it.

Oil is so misunderstood. Its the most important thing your car actually needs, but people know the least about. That is for sure.

EvocentriK

I understand your points, and I don't know why we are seemingly bashing heads. My first post indicated my street oil temps and I paraphrased for myself and others about oil temps we see during track days, which is the basis of my concern about running an xW-30 oil.

My reading is mostly based on BITOG forums too, and as far as I knew M1 10W-30 was considered to not be Group 4 PAO. Note that I didn't say "M1 is a Group 3 oil", I specified which grade my reading suggested was not group 4. This is by no means a fact, I am just saying what I have read, which is although based UOA's and VOA's, probably just other peoples opinions too.

I, like you, would like to know what oil grades/brands/types other knowledgeable people suggest for use in evos. I feel a bit on my own in that regard, as it seems no one on BITOG has any evo experience (other than you), and when I asked for some oil advice, it quickly descended into a ZDDP debate without answering my initial question about wear vs viscosity and GC vs M1 0W-40 vs for example Amsoil 10W-40 AMO or xW-30 SSO.

When I have asked at workshops or forums, I get the usual biased 'we are supported by brand X so I recommend brand X' response. Not many people do their own research, and wouldn't know what cSt @ 100*C is or means, and just buy what they are told to buy. This makes it hard to get any real advice which like yourself, I'd very much like.


EDIT - just came back from an approx. 30min drive around town, oil temp was 82*C. However I am certain once it gets up to full temp and equilibrates, that my engine sits at 92*C. I drove 9 hours when I recently moved house, and for the entirety of the trip it sat at 92, even doing 110 km/h for much of the journey.

alanarias22

iTrader: (39)

the only oil im aware of that is 100% synthetic is ams oil, ams recommends it alot also.
i wont change it for nothing. as for stock motors idk what to tell u cuss when i bought my evo 3 days after i droped it off at the shop for a full built.