JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

32psi on straight 92 octane pumpgas and a stock intake manifold and otherwise stock 2.0L do some silly things to the timing. Here is the thread with mods and what it was doing back then-

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...e-pumpgas.html

Obviously now it does run more. The combination has definitely changed a lot though since that 531whp pull. Everything that helps VE directly affects how much timing a car can take. Head porting, Intake manifold, Intake pipe, injector spray pattern (believe it or not...there is thread on this too), cam selection, MIVEC, etc. all play a strong role in being able to run 8* at 29psi or 15* at 29psi. There is a possibility I might have been able to run more than 8 but on the dyno it kept running into knock. I never did pull the plugs and get as thorough as I did recently when the car put down 648 and I wasnt sure if I could trust what was going on.

If you look at all the threads I did in the early days of SD, something as small as going from a 3" intake pipe to a 4" was worth nearly 30whp when it freed up the airflow into the turbo. Every little thing adds up, combination is EVERYTHING.

casper980

iTrader: (6)

Link to thread please...I tried searching, maybe I missed it.

JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

Weird...I cant find it either. I compared my car on RC1000s and the 3586 to either the ID2000s or the FIC2150s (pretty sure it was the FIC) on the 2.0L at a given boost level. I even swapped them from the lower rail (stock) to the upper rail location in my manifold. I have a dual rail but only use one set since I got the manifold before the 2150s were released. That lost power by the way (8 whp and idle/cruise sucked) don't do it.

The Test-

Basically I went from 482-483whp at 23psi with no timing changes to 496whp at 23psi with just the injector change. Air temp and humidity were the same, IDC was halved of course, boost was identical and timing was identical. I should have the logs on my lappy still since I am a packrat.

aaron

JC evo1

how does increased VE effect the amount of timing required?

JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

VE directly affects cylinder filling and the better it is the less contamination there is by exhaust. Basically Volumetric efficiency can be used as a measuring stick of how much "clean" charge is getting in the cylinder, i.e. 83%, 100%, 138% (F1 cars). The higher the VE the more likely it is that there is no exhaust gas left in the chamber. Since this means you have gas at lessay something like 140*F vs 1600*F (or appropriate ratio) left overs, the cold air is going to be less likely to knock. Its the same as having a better intercooler really, if the charge air is colder in the chamber the better its going to work, right?

So its not so much "timing required" as its timing allowed. If I had no intercooler on pumpgas I'd be fighting incredible intake temps and the timing I could run would be very minimal compared to a nice 4" air to air or Air/water with ice in it. The better it breathes the colder the air, the colder the air the further we can push timing, the further we push the more power we make.

I might be attributing the wrong engine principle with why it works, but its relative to engine breathing (i.e. intake manifold) so if the shoe fits wear it

aaron

saxon

iTrader: (10)

ya i didnt think you were trying to be a dick...

what a mitsu considers normal boost is what would be race gas numbers for a Honda

for instance a 35r on 1 bar would make 500+ on a k24 and most honda guys stop at 500-550 for pump gas numbers

here is a k24 @ 10psi on a 35r 10:1 compression.. stock head and piston/rod block
now granted this is on a dynapack

and im not trying to say either is better it just seems that mitsus take a higher pressure ratio to make the same power on a given turbo... this could be due to the head, the lower compression etc etc etc

it seems the more these motors are modified the less boost etc and become very similar to how the honda motors respond

i would love to build a LR 2.0L with 11:1 compression, ported head, big intake manifold and a top mount manifold

browningderek

iTrader: (7)

i tuned a k24 pte67/75 a while back. he made 560whp @ 15.5psi. impressive to say the least. no lowend torque though. the 4G63 engine comes on way sooner and harder than the K engines. it took my 3586 25psi to make 560. AWHP though.

i been doing some tuning on my 8 the last few days. it seems to want alot of timing for some reason. its putting about the same power per psi that aarons car is but to be honest im skeered to add timing until i get to a real dyno ( using VD). this really makes NO sense to me. my cranking pressure is 200psi now with the BF cams. my compression is around 10.8:1 which is at least 1 point higher than aaron but acts like it will take more timing. at 23psi i have 0* at 5K and 13* at 7K. looking at the VD curve it need way more timing at peak TQ. my peak TQ on the VD is 6500 but hits full boost at 4600. it feels lazy until 6K, after that its a damn beast.

4doorbullit

iTrader: (2)

Thats definately some nice power. Im at work right now but compared to a 2.4 mitsu motor the power comes in earlier in the mitsu motor. Im just going off from what I remember but I think the 2.4 I tuned crossed 400hp by 5200- 5500 rpm. Also put down 428 tq.

E-Spec@Tach Motor Works

iTrader: (11)

Very interesting thread...

I think what Aaron handles best in his tuning strategy is good control over the "flame front". Different combinations require different strategy, and it's obvious that his experience allows him to pump up the hp on these low octane/high compression maps. Understanding the rate of burn is key to keeping the engine together and Aaron has the "tai chi" with the keyboard!

wreckless969

iTrader: (11)

I didn't read this whole thread but I would just like to say my motor is 10:1 and I run 91...Well I mostly use e85 but I have a 91oct tune that I have used a few times.

Hope that helps some Mikey.

JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

I think a lot of what we see with Honda motors is that they can and do run over 100% VE all motor where the best a Mitsu will do is 80s normally. That right there (basically what you already said) is the big thing about Honda making power at low boost. The CFT (I think it was them) K24 with the GTXR 42R made the same power at the same boost as we did (around 1100whp as i recall) but it took 45psi like we run. Our Street Comp hatch is running 40psi to make mid 800s on a 6765, about where I would expect a mitsu to be as well.

Aaron

11:1 makes easy power per pound, Luke made almost the same power on a 6262 as Mike from AWD but did it at 8psi less boost.

Erk, you are gonna give me a big head mang. I was thinking Wu Jen more than Tai Chi...lol

casper980

iTrader: (6)

Found Link :https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/al...-injector.html

JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

Nope, not that one. This one was one of the ID2000 or FIC2150 threads but I cant seem to find it. I think it might have been a random post like that in another thread but its proving hard to find.

aaron

BLKCarbonEVO

iTrader: (2)

472whp, not to bad for only 19psi and running 13* out the top.

The car could have probably made 500hp but no need in really pushing a motor on pump right after I broke the FP Black World Record.

Mikey

casper980

iTrader: (6)

All the good info seems to randomly pop up in threads that I can never find again after the first time.