10:1 cr on 92 oct???
#46
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https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...e-pumpgas.html
Obviously now it does run more. The combination has definitely changed a lot though since that 531whp pull. Everything that helps VE directly affects how much timing a car can take. Head porting, Intake manifold, Intake pipe, injector spray pattern (believe it or not...there is thread on this too), cam selection, MIVEC, etc. all play a strong role in being able to run 8* at 29psi or 15* at 29psi. There is a possibility I might have been able to run more than 8 but on the dyno it kept running into knock. I never did pull the plugs and get as thorough as I did recently when the car put down 648 and I wasnt sure if I could trust what was going on.
If you look at all the threads I did in the early days of SD, something as small as going from a 3" intake pipe to a 4" was worth nearly 30whp when it freed up the airflow into the turbo. Every little thing adds up, combination is EVERYTHING.
#48
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Weird...I cant find it either. I compared my car on RC1000s and the 3586 to either the ID2000s or the FIC2150s (pretty sure it was the FIC) on the 2.0L at a given boost level. I even swapped them from the lower rail (stock) to the upper rail location in my manifold. I have a dual rail but only use one set since I got the manifold before the 2150s were released. That lost power by the way (8 whp and idle/cruise sucked) don't do it.
The Test-
Basically I went from 482-483whp at 23psi with no timing changes to 496whp at 23psi with just the injector change. Air temp and humidity were the same, IDC was halved of course, boost was identical and timing was identical. I should have the logs on my lappy still since I am a packrat.
aaron
The Test-
Basically I went from 482-483whp at 23psi with no timing changes to 496whp at 23psi with just the injector change. Air temp and humidity were the same, IDC was halved of course, boost was identical and timing was identical. I should have the logs on my lappy still since I am a packrat.
aaron
Last edited by JohnBradley; Jan 11, 2011 at 10:07 PM.
#49
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Obviously now it does run more. The combination has definitely changed a lot though since that 531whp pull. Everything that helps VE directly affects how much timing a car can take. Head porting, Intake manifold, Intake pipe, injector spray pattern (believe it or not...there is thread on this too), cam selection, MIVEC, etc. all play a strong role in being able to run 8* at 29psi or 15* at 29psi. There is a possibility I might have been able to run more than 8 but on the dyno it kept running into knock. I never did pull the plugs and get as thorough as I did recently when the car put down 648 and I wasnt sure if I could trust what was going on.
#50
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VE directly affects cylinder filling and the better it is the less contamination there is by exhaust. Basically Volumetric efficiency can be used as a measuring stick of how much "clean" charge is getting in the cylinder, i.e. 83%, 100%, 138% (F1 cars). The higher the VE the more likely it is that there is no exhaust gas left in the chamber. Since this means you have gas at lessay something like 140*F vs 1600*F (or appropriate ratio) left overs, the cold air is going to be less likely to knock. Its the same as having a better intercooler really, if the charge air is colder in the chamber the better its going to work, right?
So its not so much "timing required" as its timing allowed. If I had no intercooler on pumpgas I'd be fighting incredible intake temps and the timing I could run would be very minimal compared to a nice 4" air to air or Air/water with ice in it. The better it breathes the colder the air, the colder the air the further we can push timing, the further we push the more power we make.
I might be attributing the wrong engine principle with why it works, but its relative to engine breathing (i.e. intake manifold) so if the shoe fits wear it
aaron
So its not so much "timing required" as its timing allowed. If I had no intercooler on pumpgas I'd be fighting incredible intake temps and the timing I could run would be very minimal compared to a nice 4" air to air or Air/water with ice in it. The better it breathes the colder the air, the colder the air the further we can push timing, the further we push the more power we make.
I might be attributing the wrong engine principle with why it works, but its relative to engine breathing (i.e. intake manifold) so if the shoe fits wear it
aaron
#51
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For sure. On E85 or racegas and high boost I would say its okay. Tony1 took that S2k and put like a 3.0mm HG in it when he made 700whp on a stock bottom end. On the 10:1 and 11:1 K series though, how much boost are they running? Do they run what most of us Mitsu guys consider normal? Or what we consider WG line? I am asking cuz I am curious btw, not wanting to sound like a dick
what a mitsu considers normal boost is what would be race gas numbers for a Honda
for instance a 35r on 1 bar would make 500+ on a k24 and most honda guys stop at 500-550 for pump gas numbers
here is a k24 @ 10psi on a 35r 10:1 compression.. stock head and piston/rod block
now granted this is on a dynapack
and im not trying to say either is better it just seems that mitsus take a higher pressure ratio to make the same power on a given turbo... this could be due to the head, the lower compression etc etc etc
it seems the more these motors are modified the less boost etc and become very similar to how the honda motors respond
i would love to build a LR 2.0L with 11:1 compression, ported head, big intake manifold and a top mount manifold
Last edited by saxon; Jan 12, 2011 at 06:01 AM.
#52
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i tuned a k24 pte67/75 a while back. he made 560whp @ 15.5psi. impressive to say the least. no lowend torque though. the 4G63 engine comes on way sooner and harder than the K engines. it took my 3586 25psi to make 560. AWHP though.
i been doing some tuning on my 8 the last few days. it seems to want alot of timing for some reason. its putting about the same power per psi that aarons car is but to be honest im skeered to add timing until i get to a real dyno ( using VD). this really makes NO sense to me. my cranking pressure is 200psi now with the BF cams. my compression is around 10.8:1 which is at least 1 point higher than aaron but acts like it will take more timing. at 23psi i have 0* at 5K and 13* at 7K. looking at the VD curve it need way more timing at peak TQ. my peak TQ on the VD is 6500 but hits full boost at 4600. it feels lazy until 6K, after that its a damn beast.
i been doing some tuning on my 8 the last few days. it seems to want alot of timing for some reason. its putting about the same power per psi that aarons car is but to be honest im skeered to add timing until i get to a real dyno ( using VD). this really makes NO sense to me. my cranking pressure is 200psi now with the BF cams. my compression is around 10.8:1 which is at least 1 point higher than aaron but acts like it will take more timing. at 23psi i have 0* at 5K and 13* at 7K. looking at the VD curve it need way more timing at peak TQ. my peak TQ on the VD is 6500 but hits full boost at 4600. it feels lazy until 6K, after that its a damn beast.
#53
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ya i didnt think you were trying to be a dick...
what a mitsu considers normal boost is what would be race gas numbers for a Honda
for instance a 35r on 1 bar would make 500+ on a k24 and most honda guys stop at 500-550 for pump gas numbers
here is a k24 @ 10psi on a 35r 10:1 compression.. stock head and piston/rod block
now granted this is on a dynapack
and im not trying to say either is better it just seems that mitsus take a higher pressure ratio to make the same power on a given turbo... this could be due to the head, the lower compression etc etc etc
it seems the more these motors are modified the less boost etc and become very similar to how the honda motors respond
i would love to build a LR 2.0L with 11:1 compression, ported head, big intake manifold and a top mount manifold
what a mitsu considers normal boost is what would be race gas numbers for a Honda
for instance a 35r on 1 bar would make 500+ on a k24 and most honda guys stop at 500-550 for pump gas numbers
here is a k24 @ 10psi on a 35r 10:1 compression.. stock head and piston/rod block
now granted this is on a dynapack
and im not trying to say either is better it just seems that mitsus take a higher pressure ratio to make the same power on a given turbo... this could be due to the head, the lower compression etc etc etc
it seems the more these motors are modified the less boost etc and become very similar to how the honda motors respond
i would love to build a LR 2.0L with 11:1 compression, ported head, big intake manifold and a top mount manifold
Last edited by 4doorbullit; Jan 12, 2011 at 08:42 AM.
#54
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Very interesting thread...
I think what Aaron handles best in his tuning strategy is good control over the "flame front". Different combinations require different strategy, and it's obvious that his experience allows him to pump up the hp on these low octane/high compression maps. Understanding the rate of burn is key to keeping the engine together and Aaron has the "tai chi" with the keyboard!
I think what Aaron handles best in his tuning strategy is good control over the "flame front". Different combinations require different strategy, and it's obvious that his experience allows him to pump up the hp on these low octane/high compression maps. Understanding the rate of burn is key to keeping the engine together and Aaron has the "tai chi" with the keyboard!
#56
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I think a lot of what we see with Honda motors is that they can and do run over 100% VE all motor where the best a Mitsu will do is 80s normally. That right there (basically what you already said) is the big thing about Honda making power at low boost. The CFT (I think it was them) K24 with the GTXR 42R made the same power at the same boost as we did (around 1100whp as i recall) but it took 45psi like we run. Our Street Comp hatch is running 40psi to make mid 800s on a 6765, about where I would expect a mitsu to be as well.
Aaron
11:1 makes easy power per pound, Luke made almost the same power on a 6262 as Mike from AWD but did it at 8psi less boost.
Erk, you are gonna give me a big head mang. I was thinking Wu Jen more than Tai Chi...lol
Aaron
ya i didnt think you were trying to be a dick...
what a mitsu considers normal boost is what would be race gas numbers for a Honda
for instance a 35r on 1 bar would make 500+ on a k24 and most honda guys stop at 500-550 for pump gas numbers
i would love to build a LR 2.0L with 11:1 compression, ported head, big intake manifold and a top mount manifold
what a mitsu considers normal boost is what would be race gas numbers for a Honda
for instance a 35r on 1 bar would make 500+ on a k24 and most honda guys stop at 500-550 for pump gas numbers
i would love to build a LR 2.0L with 11:1 compression, ported head, big intake manifold and a top mount manifold
Erk, you are gonna give me a big head mang. I was thinking Wu Jen more than Tai Chi...lol
#57
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Weird...I cant find it either. I compared my car on RC1000s and the 3586 to either the ID2000s or the FIC2150s (pretty sure it was the FIC) on the 2.0L at a given boost level. I even swapped them from the lower rail (stock) to the upper rail location in my manifold. I have a dual rail but only use one set since I got the manifold before the 2150s were released. That lost power by the way (8 whp and idle/cruise sucked) don't do it.
The Test-
Basically I went from 482-483whp at 23psi with no timing changes to 496whp at 23psi with just the injector change. Air temp and humidity were the same, IDC was halved of course, boost was identical and timing was identical. I should have the logs on my lappy still since I am a packrat.
aaron
The Test-
Basically I went from 482-483whp at 23psi with no timing changes to 496whp at 23psi with just the injector change. Air temp and humidity were the same, IDC was halved of course, boost was identical and timing was identical. I should have the logs on my lappy still since I am a packrat.
aaron
Found Link :https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/al...-injector.html
Last edited by casper980; Jan 13, 2011 at 10:26 PM.
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