Full Race Exhuast manifold
Feb 9, 2005, 10:05 PM
#106
Ok, we'll minimize confusion by forgetting the hypotheticals for a moment and talk only EVO.
As you noted, the tendency for reversion increases as overlap increases. The factory cams have only a very small degree of overlap. Even the HKS 272 cam set (the most popular 'long duration' cam set) installed at spec angle of separation does not result in a period of overlap that proves to be significantly detrimental according to loads of dyno data.
Again as you noted, the tendency for reversion increases with a smaller hotside and more restrictive exhaust manifold (which results in higher exhaust pressures). Nevertheless, there are several persons with the factory manifold and turbo seeing 400whp with the aforementioned cam set, which is close to the theoretical max of the turbo. This being plainly evident, there seems to be little evidence of losing power to reversion. So, we do agree in principle (which are established facts anyway), the observation that the aforementioned power levels are attainable with said equipment appears to relegate reversion to being not much of an issue here - not where peak power is concerned anyway.
As you noted, the tendency for reversion increases as overlap increases. The factory cams have only a very small degree of overlap. Even the HKS 272 cam set (the most popular 'long duration' cam set) installed at spec angle of separation does not result in a period of overlap that proves to be significantly detrimental according to loads of dyno data.
Again as you noted, the tendency for reversion increases with a smaller hotside and more restrictive exhaust manifold (which results in higher exhaust pressures). Nevertheless, there are several persons with the factory manifold and turbo seeing 400whp with the aforementioned cam set, which is close to the theoretical max of the turbo. This being plainly evident, there seems to be little evidence of losing power to reversion. So, we do agree in principle (which are established facts anyway), the observation that the aforementioned power levels are attainable with said equipment appears to relegate reversion to being not much of an issue here - not where peak power is concerned anyway.
Last edited by Ted B; Feb 9, 2005 at 10:28 PM.
Feb 10, 2005, 06:12 AM
#107
I only disagreed with your statement that reversion would be more pronouced in a N/A application than a turboed app. I do not disagree that Evos make tons of power with the stock turbo and cams. If you compare a 16g from a DSM with the same compressor wheel and turbine wheel, abeit different rotation, and same cams you will see that the power potential is nowhere near that of the Evo turbo on pump gas. If you look closer you will see that the earlier turbos had a 7cm turbine housing vs. a 10.5cm on the new turbos. Could the major difference in power production between the two turbos be from reduced back pressure, thus reducing reversion? Possibly. If so than your statement about reversion not affecting peak power may not be true.
Last edited by Drifto; Feb 11, 2005 at 07:33 AM.
Feb 10, 2005, 07:08 AM
#108
Perhaps, but now we are digressing back to hypotheticals because there are more differences between a DSM and EVO aside from the turbo housing, and no one with an EVO is downgrading to the smaller hotside. Where EVOs are concerned however, it is well established that going from the '03 spec 9.8cm2 hotside to the present 10.5cm2 hotside does not significantly benefit peak power, only midrange torque (I am one with this upgrade).
Feb 10, 2005, 01:17 PM
#109
yeah there's more than one difference between the dsm 4g63s and the evo ones. now ted i have a question... do you still get boost taper? and the only way to fix a boost taper is not through the hot side but the cold side right... so a new compressor wheel with a revised or modified housing would possibly do the trick?
Feb 11, 2005, 07:31 AM
#112
You misunderstand my statement. There are vast differences between a DSM and an Evo. That is why I was not making that comparrison. I was comparing the power potential of the turbo chargers themselves. I was using the DSM term for reference only so that people reading this would know exactly which turbo I was talking about.
I was under the impression that Al @ Dynoflash said the the 05' turbos make more power than the 03-04' turbos, A good bit more. I thought around 15whp with similar mods.
I was under the impression that Al @ Dynoflash said the the 05' turbos make more power than the 03-04' turbos, A good bit more. I thought around 15whp with similar mods.
Feb 11, 2005, 08:15 AM
#114
Originally Posted by Drifto
I was under the impression that Al @ Dynoflash said the the 05' turbos make more power than the 03-04' turbos, A good bit more. I thought around 15whp with similar mods.
Feb 16, 2005, 02:41 PM
#119
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Phew... I just jumped off the deep end and purchased the Full-Race kit.
Here's the breakdown:
Full-Race Manifold: $1199
Full Race 3" DP: $599
GT35R (.63 a/r): $1299
Tial 44mm WG: $385
Lower Charge Pipe: $200
WG Dump Tube: $110
Total: $3792
Add to the above figure about $150-$200 worth of miscellaneous plumbing parts for oil and coolant. That puts the Full-Race kit in the same ball park price-wise as the RnR kit and the AMS kit. The Full-Race kit is a bit higher than what David quoted me for the Buschur BR580BB equivalent.
These are my supporting mods:
2.3L Stroker (2298cc)
- Oliver billet rods
- Venolia pistons (.020 over, 8.5:1CR, coated crown & skirt)
- 4G64 forged 100mm crank
- ported & polished head with 1mm over valves
- Titanium retainers
- HKS 264s (this selection is still being debated)
- 880 injectors
Also:
BR FMIC
BR 3" Catback with Magnaflow muffler & cat delete 'test pipe'.
BR IC Hard Piping
BR Intake
Swain Tech TBC-EX coated manifold, turbine housing & downpipe
Tuning:
- AEM EMS
- ECU Flash + piggyback (for those times when just gotta have ODB-II compliance)
In the wings:
Aquamist 2D Water Injection
I'm conservatively hoping to see 20psi @ 3500rpm & peak output of 420whp on 93 pump. We'll have to see how the whole set up performs one it's fully sorted out. Wish me luck!
Here's the breakdown:
Full-Race Manifold: $1199
Full Race 3" DP: $599
GT35R (.63 a/r): $1299
Tial 44mm WG: $385
Lower Charge Pipe: $200
WG Dump Tube: $110
Total: $3792
Add to the above figure about $150-$200 worth of miscellaneous plumbing parts for oil and coolant. That puts the Full-Race kit in the same ball park price-wise as the RnR kit and the AMS kit. The Full-Race kit is a bit higher than what David quoted me for the Buschur BR580BB equivalent.
These are my supporting mods:
2.3L Stroker (2298cc)
- Oliver billet rods
- Venolia pistons (.020 over, 8.5:1CR, coated crown & skirt)
- 4G64 forged 100mm crank
- ported & polished head with 1mm over valves
- Titanium retainers
- HKS 264s (this selection is still being debated)
- 880 injectors
Also:
BR FMIC
BR 3" Catback with Magnaflow muffler & cat delete 'test pipe'.
BR IC Hard Piping
BR Intake
Swain Tech TBC-EX coated manifold, turbine housing & downpipe
Tuning:
- AEM EMS
- ECU Flash + piggyback (for those times when just gotta have ODB-II compliance)
In the wings:
Aquamist 2D Water Injection
I'm conservatively hoping to see 20psi @ 3500rpm & peak output of 420whp on 93 pump. We'll have to see how the whole set up performs one it's fully sorted out. Wish me luck!
