stock turbo+cams vs. torque limited HTA green?
Oct 29, 2011, 01:22 PM
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stock turbo+cams vs. torque limited HTA green?
So i need some input, as i am extremely torn at this point.
ive got my tune dialed in far enough that my power numbers are pretty finalized, and i just have a tiny bit of midrange to clean up to be 100% knock free in all conditions. for all intents and purposes the car is making 350whp/330wtq through VD (+ or - 10whp/10wtq pending temp) on just shy of 24psi peak tapering to about 19 at 7500. the drivability is great and the power is nice, but its starting to lack that torque punch.
personally i dont want to push more than about another 1 psi on the stock turbo, i do not want to increase the initial punch, but instead carry more out top.
the car is currently perrin intake/licp/ets fmic/TBE/ stock o2 housing. my cam choice would be gsc s1's because i am not going to do springs/retainers. the dilemma is that i would think cams would increase WHP and probably help me carry a little more out the top end, but not really change wtq.
enter the HTA green. i know it can do exactly what i want, and i think it can easily produce 400whp/375wtq which would be about the most i want out of it for now to keep everything safe and reliable, BUT the question is, how hard is it to dial back the green? is it even worth running a turbo like that and dialing it way back?
i have no intentions of building the motor or even opening it up, and i also want to keep the stock clutch as long as possible (currently at 52k miles) i want to set it up so that i can still drive it everyday with no worries as well as autox/track days.
sorry for the rambling, hopefully someone can help straighten me out here!
ive got my tune dialed in far enough that my power numbers are pretty finalized, and i just have a tiny bit of midrange to clean up to be 100% knock free in all conditions. for all intents and purposes the car is making 350whp/330wtq through VD (+ or - 10whp/10wtq pending temp) on just shy of 24psi peak tapering to about 19 at 7500. the drivability is great and the power is nice, but its starting to lack that torque punch.
personally i dont want to push more than about another 1 psi on the stock turbo, i do not want to increase the initial punch, but instead carry more out top.
the car is currently perrin intake/licp/ets fmic/TBE/ stock o2 housing. my cam choice would be gsc s1's because i am not going to do springs/retainers. the dilemma is that i would think cams would increase WHP and probably help me carry a little more out the top end, but not really change wtq.
enter the HTA green. i know it can do exactly what i want, and i think it can easily produce 400whp/375wtq which would be about the most i want out of it for now to keep everything safe and reliable, BUT the question is, how hard is it to dial back the green? is it even worth running a turbo like that and dialing it way back?
i have no intentions of building the motor or even opening it up, and i also want to keep the stock clutch as long as possible (currently at 52k miles) i want to set it up so that i can still drive it everyday with no worries as well as autox/track days.
sorry for the rambling, hopefully someone can help straighten me out here!
Oct 29, 2011, 01:51 PM
#2
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You've still got cams and an O2 housing to do, and those also will get you some good gains for the $ .. I wouldn't worry as much about the bigger cams having any ill effects since you have a 9, tuning the mivec will help with that.. and I'd do the O2 housing also.
Of course, since you do have a 9 and there's also great results on the stock cams.. yea, I'd say HTA Green and an O2 housing "while you've got it apart"
I had the HTA Green and as far as doing what you want, it's perfect.. more top end power with great driving manners.
Of course, since you do have a 9 and there's also great results on the stock cams.. yea, I'd say HTA Green and an O2 housing "while you've got it apart"
I had the HTA Green and as far as doing what you want, it's perfect.. more top end power with great driving manners.
Oct 29, 2011, 01:57 PM
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oops forgot to mention, i have a swaintech'd megan o2 to port and put on the car in the spring along with FIC 1050's and a fuel pump. but again with the o2 housing, i feel like it will be a whp not torque effect. im chasing a torque curve, not horsepower. which brings in the worry of too big a torque hit on the rods with the green, hence trying to figure out how far i can "detune" it.
ive got a basic re worked mivec map on the car, so i think as of right now what i have is about maxed out (especially at 104% idc at 7k)
i have not been able to find many graphs of people running the green somewhat conservatively, as well as im not sure how far i can back timing down to try and control torque before i wind up with some bad side effect (egt's?)
ive got a basic re worked mivec map on the car, so i think as of right now what i have is about maxed out (especially at 104% idc at 7k)
i have not been able to find many graphs of people running the green somewhat conservatively, as well as im not sure how far i can back timing down to try and control torque before i wind up with some bad side effect (egt's?)
Oct 29, 2011, 02:51 PM
#4
If you are trying to maintain safe torque #'s and increase peak whp then why not control with boost psi? What are you controlling boost with now? You could go with a 3 port soleniod ECU setup and run say 24 psi at peak torque and hold 23-24 psi to ~7000 rpm. Also you would want to go with a stockish waste-gate spring (13psi) or 18 max. Like you said controlling torque with timing will raise EGT's to dangerous levels.
Or maybe I misread your post?
Or maybe I misread your post?
Oct 29, 2011, 04:50 PM
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at the moment boost control is a mbc with a seized locking collar lol. its what came on the car, so i just tuned the car to the boost level it had been set and extremely poorly tuned previously.
(latest VD graph here https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/9699915-post57.html)
i have a grimspeed 3 port sitting on my bench which would definitely be employed with any new turbo. my thought would be to have say 23psi at full spool, and taper up to 24 and hold. but that is where my research/info has a hole in it, i havent found any results of someone running the green at much below 27psi.
i would assume even with ecu boost control you would need to be somewhat conservative on the timing, but i dont know how much, or how conservative you can keep it.
(latest VD graph here https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/9699915-post57.html)
i have a grimspeed 3 port sitting on my bench which would definitely be employed with any new turbo. my thought would be to have say 23psi at full spool, and taper up to 24 and hold. but that is where my research/info has a hole in it, i havent found any results of someone running the green at much below 27psi.
i would assume even with ecu boost control you would need to be somewhat conservative on the timing, but i dont know how much, or how conservative you can keep it.
Nov 3, 2011, 09:24 PM
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soooo im still super torn.
i cant decide if i should suck it up and stick with the stock turbo and such to keep the value of the car since it is relatively un modded, or get a green. this is a freakin tough decision.
i cant decide if i should suck it up and stick with the stock turbo and such to keep the value of the car since it is relatively un modded, or get a green. this is a freakin tough decision.
Nov 4, 2011, 09:10 AM
#7
If you have the option to run e85 then 400 ft/lbs is within reach with the mods you have now aside from bigger injectors and fuel pump. If not then I would say go with the turbo upgrade. There is only so much you can accomplish torque and power wise on a stock turbo if you are limited by fuel type. You also need to figure what your main priority is. You mention maintaining the value of the car. Putting the green on there won't do much if anything to the value considering our cars aren't collector cars and probably won't be for quite some time if ever. If you don't have the option to go e85 and you want more torque then I say the green is your best bet. Even an old school green. Oh and get with it on the 3-port. You may find more torque there as well even on the stock turbo if tuned properly.
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Nov 4, 2011, 10:11 AM
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no, no e85 unfortunately, i live in a great state with ZERO stations.
imho there is still something to be said for a 98% stock evo on resale. tough decision.
imho there is still something to be said for a 98% stock evo on resale. tough decision.
Nov 4, 2011, 04:07 PM
#9
IMHO....... You are no where near stock as it is if you truly have the mods in your sig on the car. A turbo upgrade isn't much of a step in the wrong direction from where you're already at. I think you're making this much tougher on yourself than it really has to be. Get a pro tune with the 3-port and the o2 housing on and then decide from there. You just might be happy with it at that point.
Nov 4, 2011, 04:31 PM
#10
The detuned green will be safer than a stock turbo maxxed , plus you have the ability to be comfortable in the efficient area for the green. I did the 71 hta .. though and you should seriously considered that with a housing and call it a day. I'm 50 whp on top of my WW with stock intercooler and 3dsd. SD is a way to make some minor gains too.. relieving some of the vac in the preturbo intake.
Nov 4, 2011, 04:58 PM
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IMHO....... You are no where near stock as it is if you truly have the mods in your sig on the car. A turbo upgrade isn't much of a step in the wrong direction from where you're already at. I think you're making this much tougher on yourself than it really has to be. Get a pro tune with the 3-port and the o2 housing on and then decide from there. You just might be happy with it at that point.
The detuned green will be safer than a stock turbo maxxed , plus you have the ability to be comfortable in the efficient area for the green. I did the 71 hta .. though and you should seriously considered that with a housing and call it a day. I'm 50 whp on top of my WW with stock intercooler and 3dsd. SD is a way to make some minor gains too.. relieving some of the vac in the preturbo intake.
Nov 4, 2011, 06:49 PM
#14
honestly i think a retune just alone i could make you happy with the car as it is based on what i just read in your opening post penguin.
cams are like the last thing id recommend on a evo 9.. the stock cams do quite well.
id go as far as to say if i couldnt get you in the 380~tq range id refund your $.
cams are like the last thing id recommend on a evo 9.. the stock cams do quite well.
id go as far as to say if i couldnt get you in the 380~tq range id refund your $.
Nov 4, 2011, 07:51 PM
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i just personally dont like pushing turbos to the limit, learned the hard way over the years with various expensive shaft failures pushing t25's to 25+ psi. i dont think i would ever do more than 25psi on a stocker, which will sure make more power, but i have a hard time believing id see 30 more tq, and that being said, the key is i want to HOLD power not just make a number, something the stocker just inherently cant do.