water pump fail again...PLS HELP
Nov 29, 2011, 09:55 AM
#1
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water pump fail again...PLS HELP
hey guys
.i have a problem on my evo 9...i've changed 3 genuine mitsubishi water pumps and the 3 have failed...on the second water pump i replaced the tensioner too...now failed again..do you have anything in mind that can cause this? i mean anything...
pls help...
.i have a problem on my evo 9...i've changed 3 genuine mitsubishi water pumps and the 3 have failed...on the second water pump i replaced the tensioner too...now failed again..do you have anything in mind that can cause this? i mean anything...
pls help...
Nov 29, 2011, 12:01 PM
#4
Evolved Member
Change coolant - antifreeze contains a lubricant for the pump seal. Do a good flush to wash out any sand grains from the casting process.
That and try a different brand of pump. It could be Mitsu has a batch of bad pumps.
That and try a different brand of pump. It could be Mitsu has a batch of bad pumps.
Nov 29, 2011, 12:57 PM
#7
i know many others who were killing pumps including myself. what is the full mod list on your vehicle? my case was after 40psi~ i was lifting the head and putting extreme pressure in the coolant system.
things id do to address the issue (that ive done already).
1. get a new radiator cap OEM 1.1 bar only
2. change the thermostat out also for reassurance
3. flush the coolant system out if you feel it could use it.
4. invest in something where you can burp the coolant system for extremely long periods of time such as a Lisle yellow funnel.
5. replace the damaged waterpump of course.
6. NEVER EVER boost your car cold.. let it idle until the coolant temp gauge shows atleast warm (160f) then drive it for a good 10 minutes MINIMUM before you even think about boosting the car..
I have a water pressure gauge in my car so take my advice and please use it.. i know exactly what these cars are doing when cold.. when its cold your going to just sit at 16psi since thats what your caps rated at 1.1 bar. Never put a stronger cap on the system either.. always use OEM.
after the car is fully warmed up after a minimum of 5-10min driving on the road the water pressure then will hang around 3psi where its safe to pound on the car all you want.. if youre sitting at a stop sign for say 2minutes dont pound on it.. when you idle the car the pressure increases..
What ive noticed is, when these engines are cold and you beat on the car its going to cause 25psi spike in the coolant system because things are leaking and stuff is not fully expanded like it should be.
How much does it take to blow a weep hole out of the waterpump? that i dont know.. maybe someone else on here does hopefully.
Typically a car fully warmed up at idle will cycle from 4-5psi to 12psi or so.. everytime the fan turns off the pressure goes up, when the fan turns on the pressure goes down.. guessing the thermostat is opening and closing.
also.. boost will effect coolant pressure only because the waterpump is spinning faster and building alittle more pressure in the coolant system.. just because pressure rises with boost for a split second doesn't mean the head is being compromised.
follow my guidelines above and if your tune and car in general is mechanically good then you should never take another pump out again.
hope this helps people..
my water pressure gauge is tapped directly into my waterpipe where the throttle body line went for anyone whos curious.
things id do to address the issue (that ive done already).
1. get a new radiator cap OEM 1.1 bar only
2. change the thermostat out also for reassurance
3. flush the coolant system out if you feel it could use it.
4. invest in something where you can burp the coolant system for extremely long periods of time such as a Lisle yellow funnel.
5. replace the damaged waterpump of course.
6. NEVER EVER boost your car cold.. let it idle until the coolant temp gauge shows atleast warm (160f) then drive it for a good 10 minutes MINIMUM before you even think about boosting the car..
I have a water pressure gauge in my car so take my advice and please use it.. i know exactly what these cars are doing when cold.. when its cold your going to just sit at 16psi since thats what your caps rated at 1.1 bar. Never put a stronger cap on the system either.. always use OEM.
after the car is fully warmed up after a minimum of 5-10min driving on the road the water pressure then will hang around 3psi where its safe to pound on the car all you want.. if youre sitting at a stop sign for say 2minutes dont pound on it.. when you idle the car the pressure increases..
What ive noticed is, when these engines are cold and you beat on the car its going to cause 25psi spike in the coolant system because things are leaking and stuff is not fully expanded like it should be.
How much does it take to blow a weep hole out of the waterpump? that i dont know.. maybe someone else on here does hopefully.
Typically a car fully warmed up at idle will cycle from 4-5psi to 12psi or so.. everytime the fan turns off the pressure goes up, when the fan turns on the pressure goes down.. guessing the thermostat is opening and closing.
also.. boost will effect coolant pressure only because the waterpump is spinning faster and building alittle more pressure in the coolant system.. just because pressure rises with boost for a split second doesn't mean the head is being compromised.
follow my guidelines above and if your tune and car in general is mechanically good then you should never take another pump out again.
hope this helps people..
my water pressure gauge is tapped directly into my waterpipe where the throttle body line went for anyone whos curious.
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Nov 29, 2011, 01:06 PM
#9
When you bought from NAPA did they not give you the box also? they must get bulk from gates and avoid the advertisement side i guess? theres markings on the gates pumps, so i can confirm the one u got was gates if you're not sure.
Nov 29, 2011, 02:15 PM
#13
but if you drive your car after the weep holes blown you will not notice any audible noises and so forth.. when you remove the water pump and inspect it you will also notice no play in the water pump blade and it still spins STIFF.. meaning the seal is still fresh and good.. so now the question is..
why would Mitsubishi make the weep hole so weak to blow out prematurely under any given little spike in the system even if the actual main seal in the pump was unaffected?
it really makes zero sense.. it seems as if the weep hole is an independent system in itself.. it must slowly wear down and not have anything to do with the actual pump seal itself.
i have 2 pumps here.. i can compare them to a new OEM pump.. you'll see absolutely nothing damaged and they all spin with the same resistance.. meaning the bearings/pump are fine.
if you fill them up however, you will see the bad ones have a slow drip leak out of the weep hole.
I know someone who recently welded theirs shut and what he noticed was his overflow tank filled up - meaning the head lifted and compromised the hg seal.
if the HG is not damaged, then a simple retq in studs will fix his issue.. but the fact the pumps are this weak is pretty sad in general.
also the pump is driven by the accessory belt, so keep that in mind.. sure the belt wraps around the outer crank pulley, but if the pump were to ever lock up it would just burn your accessory belt up.. wouldn't effect nothing else, granted you had the lower timing cover on your car.. and if you don't you should get one asap.
i think im gonna rip apart one of my pumps just to learn more about how they are designed and if i see anything interesting ill share it with you guys.
but in all honesty if you follow my suggestions above about not boosting until the cars fully warmed up and driven on for a good bit you should have no issues unless you need to torque down the studs more on the head or even possibly the tune is jacked up.
Nov 29, 2011, 05:35 PM
#14
Evolved Member
The OEM pump, at least the one that came off of my car, was made by BTK, a Japanese company headquartered in Tokyo. However, their oil pumps and water pumps can be found on vehicles worldwide including American makes.
The pump has a ceramic seal. These first appeared for large industrial pumps, as I remember, back in the 70's and were an expensive upgrade. The seal consists of two ceramic flat rings that slide together, one stationary in the housing and the other on the shaft, their mating surfaces pressed together by a spring. Large industrial pumps, depending on what was being pumped, required what was called gland water, clean water pumped into the seal area at a pressure higher that what the pump was capable of producing. The reason for this was that any particle harder than ceramic that managed to work its way between the sealing surfaces would cut them to pieces. The ceramic material is so hard that the surfaces can rub together at the speed the pump operates at and not wear out for many thousands of miles on a car if not contaminated.
I remember the pump that was used on my DSM twenty years ago and all it had was a hole that went directly into the area between the seal and the bearing. The Evo pump has two weep holes (if they are both drilled into the interior) so evidently the pump is used in another application and mounted differently. But instead of a hole there are passageways along the pump housing that are apparently to bring any leaked antifreeze to the outside of the timing belt area.
So, what you have going from the inside to the outside of the pump is impeller, ceramic seal, weep hole and bearing. The bearing is also sealed but the seal is to keep out dirt from the outside and keep out coolant, not under pressure, from the inside.
So, having a sealed weep hole on a failing water pump means that first the seal would leak a little and then the space between the seal and the bearing would fill and eventually the coolant would work its way into the bearing. Then the bearing would fail. This would occur even if the seal was leaking so little as to not otherwise cause a problem.
The pump has a ceramic seal. These first appeared for large industrial pumps, as I remember, back in the 70's and were an expensive upgrade. The seal consists of two ceramic flat rings that slide together, one stationary in the housing and the other on the shaft, their mating surfaces pressed together by a spring. Large industrial pumps, depending on what was being pumped, required what was called gland water, clean water pumped into the seal area at a pressure higher that what the pump was capable of producing. The reason for this was that any particle harder than ceramic that managed to work its way between the sealing surfaces would cut them to pieces. The ceramic material is so hard that the surfaces can rub together at the speed the pump operates at and not wear out for many thousands of miles on a car if not contaminated.
I remember the pump that was used on my DSM twenty years ago and all it had was a hole that went directly into the area between the seal and the bearing. The Evo pump has two weep holes (if they are both drilled into the interior) so evidently the pump is used in another application and mounted differently. But instead of a hole there are passageways along the pump housing that are apparently to bring any leaked antifreeze to the outside of the timing belt area.
So, what you have going from the inside to the outside of the pump is impeller, ceramic seal, weep hole and bearing. The bearing is also sealed but the seal is to keep out dirt from the outside and keep out coolant, not under pressure, from the inside.
So, having a sealed weep hole on a failing water pump means that first the seal would leak a little and then the space between the seal and the bearing would fill and eventually the coolant would work its way into the bearing. Then the bearing would fail. This would occur even if the seal was leaking so little as to not otherwise cause a problem.
Nov 29, 2011, 08:10 PM
#15
The OEM pump, at least the one that came off of my car, was made by BTK, a Japanese company headquartered in Tokyo. However, their oil pumps and water pumps can be found on vehicles worldwide including American makes.
The pump has a ceramic seal. These first appeared for large industrial pumps, as I remember, back in the 70's and were an expensive upgrade. The seal consists of two ceramic flat rings that slide together, one stationary in the housing and the other on the shaft, their mating surfaces pressed together by a spring. Large industrial pumps, depending on what was being pumped, required what was called gland water, clean water pumped into the seal area at a pressure higher that what the pump was capable of producing. The reason for this was that any particle harder than ceramic that managed to work its way between the sealing surfaces would cut them to pieces. The ceramic material is so hard that the surfaces can rub together at the speed the pump operates at and not wear out for many thousands of miles on a car if not contaminated.
I remember the pump that was used on my DSM twenty years ago and all it had was a hole that went directly into the area between the seal and the bearing. The Evo pump has two weep holes (if they are both drilled into the interior) so evidently the pump is used in another application and mounted differently. But instead of a hole there are passageways along the pump housing that are apparently to bring any leaked antifreeze to the outside of the timing belt area.
So, what you have going from the inside to the outside of the pump is impeller, ceramic seal, weep hole and bearing. The bearing is also sealed but the seal is to keep out dirt from the outside and keep out coolant, not under pressure, from the inside.
So, having a sealed weep hole on a failing water pump means that first the seal would leak a little and then the space between the seal and the bearing would fill and eventually the coolant would work its way into the bearing. Then the bearing would fail. This would occur even if the seal was leaking so little as to not otherwise cause a problem.
The pump has a ceramic seal. These first appeared for large industrial pumps, as I remember, back in the 70's and were an expensive upgrade. The seal consists of two ceramic flat rings that slide together, one stationary in the housing and the other on the shaft, their mating surfaces pressed together by a spring. Large industrial pumps, depending on what was being pumped, required what was called gland water, clean water pumped into the seal area at a pressure higher that what the pump was capable of producing. The reason for this was that any particle harder than ceramic that managed to work its way between the sealing surfaces would cut them to pieces. The ceramic material is so hard that the surfaces can rub together at the speed the pump operates at and not wear out for many thousands of miles on a car if not contaminated.
I remember the pump that was used on my DSM twenty years ago and all it had was a hole that went directly into the area between the seal and the bearing. The Evo pump has two weep holes (if they are both drilled into the interior) so evidently the pump is used in another application and mounted differently. But instead of a hole there are passageways along the pump housing that are apparently to bring any leaked antifreeze to the outside of the timing belt area.
So, what you have going from the inside to the outside of the pump is impeller, ceramic seal, weep hole and bearing. The bearing is also sealed but the seal is to keep out dirt from the outside and keep out coolant, not under pressure, from the inside.
So, having a sealed weep hole on a failing water pump means that first the seal would leak a little and then the space between the seal and the bearing would fill and eventually the coolant would work its way into the bearing. Then the bearing would fail. This would occur even if the seal was leaking so little as to not otherwise cause a problem.
did you write all that info in your own words or are you going off a 3rd party?
if in your own words then you know a crap load about how the pumps designed.. and based off what i just read, welding the weep hole shut will lead to a catastrophe if you will.. a seized up pump correct?