The Mellon Racing EVO head mysteriously lifted and the culprit has been found!
Jan 13, 2012, 06:45 AM
#61
I run E98 but I do not run the fuel I make myself, not yet anyway. I buy it directly from the producer and store it in clean old VP race drums here at the shop.
Ethanol is a lot different when it comes to tuning than gasoline. At lower HP levels it's not so critical, as the power goes up you really have to watch it. The fuel will just keep making more power as you lean it out and you start patting yourself on the back and then BOOOM! It typically doesn't show up on a knock sensor at all. Now if you tune it on the rich side it shows detonation just like gasoline does. I am no chemist and I don't want to read a book on why this is, I just know it as fact from tuning so many cars on E85/E98, it's how things work. Keep the AFR's in the 11.5:1 range and the knock seems to pick up normally. Start getting leaner than 12:1 and it starts becoming a game. In this case of the injectors being plugged up the car got leaner than it should have been and it did that BOOOM thing! I don't think det cans would have helped the situation, maybe but I don't see anyone driving around with those on.......
The knock count thing was all discussed in our e-mails and knowing what I know about ethanol I didn't care to hear about the low knock counts. I need to remind myself (like we were discussing here at the shop a few days ago) that while a question seems stupid to me after nearly 23 years of answering the same ones over and over, that to the guy asking it or having a problem it's a brand new one for him. I probably should have tried to explain more of what may have happened in this case when it did 2 months ago rather than just going on the defense to "IT'S NOT OUR ****ING WORK THAT CAUSED IT."
I'm glad all is well and we are both stand up dudes.
Ethanol is a lot different when it comes to tuning than gasoline. At lower HP levels it's not so critical, as the power goes up you really have to watch it. The fuel will just keep making more power as you lean it out and you start patting yourself on the back and then BOOOM! It typically doesn't show up on a knock sensor at all. Now if you tune it on the rich side it shows detonation just like gasoline does. I am no chemist and I don't want to read a book on why this is, I just know it as fact from tuning so many cars on E85/E98, it's how things work. Keep the AFR's in the 11.5:1 range and the knock seems to pick up normally. Start getting leaner than 12:1 and it starts becoming a game. In this case of the injectors being plugged up the car got leaner than it should have been and it did that BOOOM thing! I don't think det cans would have helped the situation, maybe but I don't see anyone driving around with those on.......
The knock count thing was all discussed in our e-mails and knowing what I know about ethanol I didn't care to hear about the low knock counts. I need to remind myself (like we were discussing here at the shop a few days ago) that while a question seems stupid to me after nearly 23 years of answering the same ones over and over, that to the guy asking it or having a problem it's a brand new one for him. I probably should have tried to explain more of what may have happened in this case when it did 2 months ago rather than just going on the defense to "IT'S NOT OUR ****ING WORK THAT CAUSED IT."
I'm glad all is well and we are both stand up dudes.
Jan 13, 2012, 06:55 AM
#62
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Glad to see a happy ending to this argument...
To the e85 users... Can you add a fuel injector cleaner with e85 in the tank every few thousand miles to see if it helps out? Like a techron or something similar?
To the e85 users... Can you add a fuel injector cleaner with e85 in the tank every few thousand miles to see if it helps out? Like a techron or something similar?
Jan 13, 2012, 07:16 AM
#64
A while back I had a brand new set of 2150's from FIC, 500-1000 miles (not sure exactly) they were covered in the black crap. I sent them to Jens and they were junk, he couldn't get them clean enough. I don't think he believed me that it had so few miles, But I swore they were very new. It really sucks you had to grenade a motor on the same issue. And this goes to show that e85 has its issues that need close attention. Glad everyone can come together again.
Note: The black gunk was not in any filters (had 2 ss elements brand new 10/40) Brand new AN line, Brand new Fuel cell that was coated with e85 type coating. This is a problem with the fuel itself. I have heard of people running some e85 cleaner (forget the name maybe STP or something similar) with good results. They check the injectors regularly and have not found goo. Also they run 93 pump gas through a few tanks as well. But for 1000 miles and having this problem it still worries me.
-Brian
Note: The black gunk was not in any filters (had 2 ss elements brand new 10/40) Brand new AN line, Brand new Fuel cell that was coated with e85 type coating. This is a problem with the fuel itself. I have heard of people running some e85 cleaner (forget the name maybe STP or something similar) with good results. They check the injectors regularly and have not found goo. Also they run 93 pump gas through a few tanks as well. But for 1000 miles and having this problem it still worries me.
-Brian
Last edited by Dynotech Tuning; Jan 13, 2012 at 07:24 AM.
Jan 13, 2012, 07:41 AM
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I'm glad this is finally all sorted out.
I'm going to throw some personal experience out there in regards to the black gunk. While I acknowledge that the direct cause of this isn't know, I will say there they maybe a multitude of things that it could be.
In my case I am running a set of ID2000s. I started noticing AFR issues at idle. I checked everything over and eventually pulled the injectors. I found all of my injectors covered in the black gunk. The rest of my fuel system was clean from what I could tell. Mine looked like this:
My black gunk though had a rubbery consistency to it. I concluded that the E85 has be eating up the seals where the injectors seat into the intake manifold. I installed my ID2000 minus the seal shown in this pic and haven't had an issue since.
Note: I borrowed this pic from another thread on here, and while these aren't ID2000s I still installed the ID2000s using these o-rings. That may be wrong, but these are the seals that I believe the E85 were degrading over time.
I'm going to throw some personal experience out there in regards to the black gunk. While I acknowledge that the direct cause of this isn't know, I will say there they maybe a multitude of things that it could be.
In my case I am running a set of ID2000s. I started noticing AFR issues at idle. I checked everything over and eventually pulled the injectors. I found all of my injectors covered in the black gunk. The rest of my fuel system was clean from what I could tell. Mine looked like this:
My black gunk though had a rubbery consistency to it. I concluded that the E85 has be eating up the seals where the injectors seat into the intake manifold. I installed my ID2000 minus the seal shown in this pic and haven't had an issue since.
Note: I borrowed this pic from another thread on here, and while these aren't ID2000s I still installed the ID2000s using these o-rings. That may be wrong, but these are the seals that I believe the E85 were degrading over time.
Jan 13, 2012, 08:33 AM
#69
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I'm glad this is finally all sorted out.
I'm going to throw some personal experience out there in regards to the black gunk. While I acknowledge that the direct cause of this isn't know, I will say there they maybe a multitude of things that it could be.
In my case I am running a set of ID2000s. I started noticing AFR issues at idle. I checked everything over and eventually pulled the injectors. I found all of my injectors covered in the black gunk. The rest of my fuel system was clean from what I could tell. Mine looked like this:
My black gunk though had a rubbery consistency to it. I concluded that the E85 has be eating up the seals where the injectors seat into the intake manifold. I installed my ID2000 minus the seal shown in this pic and haven't had an issue since.
Note: I borrowed this pic from another thread on here, and while these aren't ID2000s I still installed the ID2000s using these o-rings. That may be wrong, but these are the seals that I believe the E85 were degrading over time.
I'm going to throw some personal experience out there in regards to the black gunk. While I acknowledge that the direct cause of this isn't know, I will say there they maybe a multitude of things that it could be.
In my case I am running a set of ID2000s. I started noticing AFR issues at idle. I checked everything over and eventually pulled the injectors. I found all of my injectors covered in the black gunk. The rest of my fuel system was clean from what I could tell. Mine looked like this:
My black gunk though had a rubbery consistency to it. I concluded that the E85 has be eating up the seals where the injectors seat into the intake manifold. I installed my ID2000 minus the seal shown in this pic and haven't had an issue since.
Note: I borrowed this pic from another thread on here, and while these aren't ID2000s I still installed the ID2000s using these o-rings. That may be wrong, but these are the seals that I believe the E85 were degrading over time.
Jan 13, 2012, 08:39 AM
#70
The black goo doesnt seem to be affected by pumpgas, least in my experience. The 2 times I have had issues with goo forming was within 15 miles of filling up the car. Mine started missing so bad it was tossing the knock light. Sent the injectors in and it was down 25cc on one injector but the spray patterns were totally fouled. My car has been down for the 2012 build so I loaned my injectors to one of my friends here for his galant. He filled up and went about 20 miles and had the same thing happen. Not only were they 100% clogged in that time, the damage was significant. Head and block both got jetted. In my experience this is from E85 (not E98-E100) sitting in the holding tanks for a LONG time. Stations that go through the fuel regularly dont seem to have this happen as much as the ones that have it as a novelty. Our 500 gallons of E100 sits for awhile but there isnt any gas in it and it seems fine all year round.
Jan 13, 2012, 10:37 AM
#73
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The black goo doesnt seem to be affected by pumpgas, least in my experience. The 2 times I have had issues with goo forming was within 15 miles of filling up the car. Mine started missing so bad it was tossing the knock light. Sent the injectors in and it was down 25cc on one injector but the spray patterns were totally fouled. My car has been down for the 2012 build so I loaned my injectors to one of my friends here for his galant. He filled up and went about 20 miles and had the same thing happen. Not only were they 100% clogged in that time, the damage was significant. Head and block both got jetted. In my experience this is from E85 (not E98-E100) sitting in the holding tanks for a LONG time. Stations that go through the fuel regularly dont seem to have this happen as much as the ones that have it as a novelty. Our 500 gallons of E100 sits for awhile but there isnt any gas in it and it seems fine all year round.
I really wish there was a way to test to see if the E85 is crappy, other than overall ethanol content with a flexfuel sensor or test tube.
There has to be a way to test the fuel.
-Bink
Jan 13, 2012, 10:50 AM
#74
First, I would like to say that it is awesome to see both companies come back together and work things out.
Second, as I was reading about the E85 and gunk buildup issues I was thinking (hurt a little bit, but I did it anyway) "what if it is a heat issue". Let me explain (keep in mind though I do not use E85, nor have it in my area), most threads I read about this issue say it is the injectors that are gunked up or plugged. From what I can see or the sounds of it, rarely, if ever the cylinder walls, faces of the piston, faces of the valves, or exhaust manifold have the same builup. What if the heat from the engine in the area where the injectors are is enough to help form that gunk, but the heat in the combustion chamber is great enough to either "burn it off" or is enough to where it is not a problem? Since it seems that filters do not make a difference in the buildup or not.
I was also thinking that if it were actually the fuel lines that were being dissolved/eaten away, whatever you want to call it, wouldn't the input of the injector also be clogged, not just the output of the injector?
Keep in mind I am not experienced in E85 at all and was curious if this has been thought about or if there was a way to even test it. Let me know what you guys think or if there is even some, even a miniscule amount, of possiblity/truth to this.
P.S. Sorry if this is too off topic, let me know and I will make another thread as I am legitimately curious about this.
Second, as I was reading about the E85 and gunk buildup issues I was thinking (hurt a little bit, but I did it anyway) "what if it is a heat issue". Let me explain (keep in mind though I do not use E85, nor have it in my area), most threads I read about this issue say it is the injectors that are gunked up or plugged. From what I can see or the sounds of it, rarely, if ever the cylinder walls, faces of the piston, faces of the valves, or exhaust manifold have the same builup. What if the heat from the engine in the area where the injectors are is enough to help form that gunk, but the heat in the combustion chamber is great enough to either "burn it off" or is enough to where it is not a problem? Since it seems that filters do not make a difference in the buildup or not.
I was also thinking that if it were actually the fuel lines that were being dissolved/eaten away, whatever you want to call it, wouldn't the input of the injector also be clogged, not just the output of the injector?
Keep in mind I am not experienced in E85 at all and was curious if this has been thought about or if there was a way to even test it. Let me know what you guys think or if there is even some, even a miniscule amount, of possiblity/truth to this.
P.S. Sorry if this is too off topic, let me know and I will make another thread as I am legitimately curious about this.
Last edited by evo 9 guy; Jan 13, 2012 at 01:29 PM. Reason: Added more information
Jan 13, 2012, 11:08 AM
#75
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theres a whole lotta vendor bro-mance going on in this thread....dont make it weird 
i think i actually shed a tear of joy.
glad everything worked out, a problem was found, announced to the public to avoid future E85 clogging problems, and everyone can move forward.
1/13/11. Never forget. The day EvoM members acted like adults and not a hellafrush crew...i mean cough children i mean cough steroid induced rage heads.
cheers everyone
i think i actually shed a tear of joy.
glad everything worked out, a problem was found, announced to the public to avoid future E85 clogging problems, and everyone can move forward.
1/13/11. Never forget. The day EvoM members acted like adults and not a hellafrush crew...i mean cough children i mean cough steroid induced rage heads.
cheers everyone