fireroasted

iTrader: (3)

Thanks Ted B.

The diesel installation part is where lots of these threads differ. The FSM does specifically state to install the lifters filled with diesel and not allow the diesel to spill.

I was wondering if that was to ensure no air gets trapped in the lifter when its upright. So that when oil pumps it up it expels the diesel and acts as a cleaner to keep contaminants from getting in during installation. I suppose an oil change would be logical shortly after break in.

I am wondering if my oil pressure in general is too low based on your comments. Can you think of the proper way to identify that. I did do the balance shaft delete and could have some issue from that that I am not aware of.

Ted B

iTrader: (6)

I can agree with all of the above. I still don't think I'd be doing the diesel thing. The thought of all that diesel in the oil makes me shudder.

According to Kiggly (FWIW), the lifters require only 15-20psi for proper function. I've wondered myself how the additional pressure of stiff valvesprings may affect the lifters, but I have no means of investigating this definitively. I do know that the lifters sold by AMS claim to have a stiffer internal spring to eliminate ticking, and perhaps others do as well. That's about all I can offer.

90zcrex

iTrader: (11)

I am a Diesel tech, and I've seen engines come in with gallons of diesel in the oil, (problems with fuel injectors or other fuel system components) and we've pulled these engines apart and see absolutely nothing out of the ordinary with the rod and main bearings.
And the fact that it is in the Mitsubishi service manual tells me that it will not hurt anything to run with a small amount of diesel in the oil.

The only problem with following the service manual is that Mitsubishi doesn't expect you to install high lift cams. They were probably designed so that even with the lifter fully pumped full of diesel, there would be no mechanical contact of valves/piston. And the reason they use diesel is that it will help clean and it bleeds down faster than oil.
Now with a high lift cam and the lifter fully pumped, there could be the possibility that if the lifter doesn't bleed down fast enough and causes some damage.

I think the point of the diesel in the lifter was to ensure no air trapped inside and ease of bleeding back down with the thin diesel as opposed to oil.

fireroasted

iTrader: (3)

Does it make sense that if air is trapped in the lifter, for instance when everyone bleeds them, but doesn't fill them with anything before install, that with the orientation of the lifter that it could keep that air trapped even though oil is passing through it during operation? Is that mechanically logical? And then, that this could in fact be the ticking?

Ted B

iTrader: (6)

That should not be the case, as a properly functioning hydraulic lifter should not be bleeding down during engine operation. One can easily replace them with a set of solid lifters if he likes, and it will run fine if properly zero lashed.

If valves are bent, that's indicative of another problem, which is why one should always carefully turn the engine over by hand, without plugs, after performing valvetrain service.

I suspect the diesel is suggested because it's a lower viscosity fluid that's much easier to preload into a lifter without feed pressure, and the siphoning effect gets the lifters pumped more quickly than starting with them bled.

barneyb

Ted B

iTrader: (6)

The above video is informative and thorough. The clean and installation prep procedure is far better than what is described in the FSM (doesn't contaminate the engine oil). He also makes a case for not manually pumping the lifters with oil.

90zcrex

iTrader: (11)

Yes you are correct, during NORMAL operation the lifters do not bleed down, but as stated in the service manual if you manually pump the lifters to the maximum height then they will bleed down a bit from the pressure of the valve once the engine is spun over.
I think the diesel is used so that it can escape the lifter more quickly than regular oil, all while not letting any air get trapped in the lifter.

We have engines that use hydraulic over injector systems which is basically high oil pressure used to fire injectors. These system which are running at 3k-4k psi of oil pressure will sometimes take a very long time (hrs) to bleed the air from the system while running.
Its just my theory that this is what Mitsu is trying to avoid with the diesel in the lifters. I could be entirely wrong thou

Ted B

iTrader: (6)

I have every reason to agree that indeed you are correct in following Mitsu's thinking. This is just one example where speaking personally, I would deviate from the official procedure and defer to the instructions in the above video.

fireroasted

iTrader: (3)

That video was by far the best one I have seen on this process. Very well done.

During my build last year I did what most on here do, which was to bleed them empty and re-install them. I did not go through a cleaning step. As I dealt with the normal post engine build stuff I had some cam shaft issue, which finally had me replacing my kelford intake cam. That mixed with idle issue there was lots of noise going on. Once I resolved some of the noises and replaced the cam I noticed lots of lifter ticking. When I did that replacement I didn't bleed the lifters. I also didn't rotate the engine. I simply took one cam out and replaced it with exactly the same cam. The result seemed to be way more ticking.

So, now based on this last research I just completed the lifter tech but this time with a clean. I didn't do anything near as thorough as the above, but slightly more than the FSM. I removed the lifters without removing the cams this time. screwdriver, patience, and a small crow bar.

I did 4 baths of diesel total, and left them full of diesel. So they were hard or solid upon install. I did notice that even though solid to hand pressure I could compress them slightly pushing down on them on the workbench. So there was 'some' give even filled with diesel. I did not do the many hours of soaking noted above, and I did not check for chunks of dirt. I also did not line up the holes. I probably would have if I saw that post before I started, but just as reference I didn't. I could really only see old oil coming out.

reinstalled and not a peep from them. I do have significant injector clicking, but I confirmed with a stethoscope its coming directly from my injectors and not from the head. I have started it a couple times cold and still completely quiet. I will update here, and maybe do a short write up on my version of this.

My current theory is that air in the lifter potentially gets stuck or trapped and doesn't work itself out and then the components internally are slapping around, making the noise. This, I know, somewhat contradicts the many many posts here so bleed them empty, which is essentially filling them with air, with the expectation that they will purge the air while in the head and fill with oil. This is logical, but my experience is that I did that, and I got ticking (didn't have it before my build) I did nothing when I replaced the intake cam, and I got even more ticking. Even this well done video seems to indicate to install them 'empty'.

Then I did basically what the FSM states, filled with diesel, and its quiet. Now for another oil change.

honda-guy

iTrader: (55)

I installed M2 cams last week and didnt bleed the lifters. Turned the engine over sevreal times by hand to make sure nothing hit. Then stared the engine and very loud ticking sound from the engine. I thought it was rod knock at first because it was so loud. Then after a few minutes it got quieter. Then once the engine warmed up to normal operating temp, its much more quite but you can still hear a slight ticking. So now when I start engine after sitting for awhile, it ticks pretty loud at first then quiet down after 5 minutes or so at idle.

I have kiggly installed. Wonder if that restricts too much pressure for big cams. or should I just get GSC no tick lifters.

Ted B

iTrader: (6)

The engine will always make more valvetrain noise with more aggressive cams. Nevertheless, if your lifters are working properly, your engine should quiet down after 20-30 min of freeway cruising to work the air out of the lifters. I would not spin it hard until then.

The design of the lifters makes them prone to fouling. The smart play is to remove each one during a cam swap and check them thoroughly. One that has a blocked oil passage will reduce power and tap (collapse) against its own spring until it eventually comes apart. Ask me how I know.

I'm using the Kiggly restrictor and GSC lifters, which have a stronger internal spring, and the engine has never run better or quieter.

WRC-LVR

iTrader: (1)

This is a very informative definitive thread. I have again learned a lot.

Ted i remember when you did your build some years ago, you used JAM and i thought their no tick lifters. GSC now? Perhaps my faulty memory

Any way, to me it looks like the bottom line is to just get new ones, they will be clean. I again agree with Ted but would only partially fill them with oil. They will fill at start up and over a low rpm 15-20 min time.

I seriously doubt that the lifters are installed dry on the assembly line. Most likely a pressure system to pressurise and fully lube everything correctly to all passages. I do not have an idea of the time from install to actual fire but it could be 30 minutes to several days. The oil would not bleed down much at all in correctly functioning lifers then . Diesel should only then be used to clean and check.. If soft or leaks replace them

Stiffer valve springs will require slightly stiffer inner springs in the hydraulic lifters other wise they may compress slightly and your cam lift and duration will not be what was designed in. Keep that in mind at 8500 rpm if the engine is flat or nosing over.

Still be better to lose .003 lift than float the valves.

Ted, your comment on solid lifters is spot on..IIRC JUN or others still makes those ...setting cold and hot clearance is important..


Milburn

honda-guy

iTrader: (55)

so do you think it's normal for the lifter to be noisy for the first 5 minutes of idle? this is weeks after installing M2 cams and GSC valve springs and Ti retainers.

i'll get the GSC lifters sometime soon. any good instructions how to get lifters out without removing cams.

Ted B

iTrader: (6)

There is a possibility you have a bad or fouled lifter. We can't be certain until you remove them.

The lifters can be changed without removing the cams, but the cam tower bolts will need to be loosened so the cams can be lifted far enough to pop the rockers out. The best way to do this is to loosen the cam belt tensioner, zip tie the cam belt to the cam gears, and use patience. It worked for me.


I suspect the factory fills them with diesel prior to installation. I'm not interested in introducing diesel into my motor oil.

Originally I installed lifters sold by JAM, which I suspect were the latest revision of the factory lifter, with larger oil passages that are less prone to foul and cause collapse. Until the lifters sold by GSC appeared, those were the best available option.

I would install the GSC lifters only dry - no oil. Greg will agree with me there.


The stiffer internal springs are an aid that buffer the potential for collapse, and are definitely better suited toward aftermarket cams and valve springs. The factory part was not designed to withstand steep cam ramp angles, stiff valve springs, and high rpm applications.