BBK-B BB or Fp Red BB Turbo. Which to go for?
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BBK-B BB or Fp Red BB Turbo. Which to go for?
Hi guys,
Hope you are all well.
I am from the UK and own a Evo 8 MR. My car is designed as a FAST ROAD CAR with good low down torque and top end power. I value response and drivability much more then figures.
My car has been at my tuners for a few months and from what I can remember the current spec is:
2.2L Long Rod (Ross Sport 94mm (2.2) Billet Crank Shaft, R&R Ross Sport LW Pro-Billet I-Beam Connecting Rods (153mm), CP Custom X-Forged Pistons)
FP RED HTA Turbo
Cosworth M2 272 Cams with vernier springs and retainers
Adjustable Cam gears
LR19 Head Studs
Stock Cylinder Head Glass Flowed, Ported, Polished and Gas flowed
JMF Exhaust Manifold
MAP Rev 2 Ported Intake Manifold and s90 70mm Throttle Body
1000CC Injector Dynamics Injectors
340L Stealth Fuel Pump
ACT Streetlite Flywheel and Clutch
Syvec ECUs
loads of other engine bits and pieces but can't remember them all off the top of my head!
Basically my car is still at the tuners, even though it is done because I have some work going on at home at the moment and no where to park it.
Anyway..... After spending all that money on a Journal bearing FP Red turbo, the FP Red Ball Bearing has been released!
I am thinking that while the my car is at the tuners and he has offered to fit and map the turbo it would make sense to go for a ball bearing turbo; if only for the increased reliability and less chance of the turbo dieing and damaging the new 2.2L Engine build. I can also sell my virtually brand new FP Red HTA (only has dyno run-in miles) to help pay for it.
Now the two BB turbos I am looking at are either the FP Red HTA BB or BBK-B BB (BLOUCH 760XT-R).
I would prefer to stick with FP but I have no UK results for the FP Red BB so I was hoping you US guys had done more testing since I assume it has been out here longer?
The BBK-B BB has grabbed my attention too because a UK member of MLR (Evo owners club) has one and I must admit it looks awesome with a massive improvement over his old BBK-B (journal bearing)
http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=396658
The resukts are on a 2.0L!!
If the FP Red BB offers similar or better performance then I am sold, but the BBK-B BB is looking a tempting turbo and is cheaper to buy too.
Thanks for any help offered.
Anees
Hope you are all well.
I am from the UK and own a Evo 8 MR. My car is designed as a FAST ROAD CAR with good low down torque and top end power. I value response and drivability much more then figures.
My car has been at my tuners for a few months and from what I can remember the current spec is:
2.2L Long Rod (Ross Sport 94mm (2.2) Billet Crank Shaft, R&R Ross Sport LW Pro-Billet I-Beam Connecting Rods (153mm), CP Custom X-Forged Pistons)
FP RED HTA Turbo
Cosworth M2 272 Cams with vernier springs and retainers
Adjustable Cam gears
LR19 Head Studs
Stock Cylinder Head Glass Flowed, Ported, Polished and Gas flowed
JMF Exhaust Manifold
MAP Rev 2 Ported Intake Manifold and s90 70mm Throttle Body
1000CC Injector Dynamics Injectors
340L Stealth Fuel Pump
ACT Streetlite Flywheel and Clutch
Syvec ECUs
loads of other engine bits and pieces but can't remember them all off the top of my head!
Basically my car is still at the tuners, even though it is done because I have some work going on at home at the moment and no where to park it.
Anyway..... After spending all that money on a Journal bearing FP Red turbo, the FP Red Ball Bearing has been released!
I am thinking that while the my car is at the tuners and he has offered to fit and map the turbo it would make sense to go for a ball bearing turbo; if only for the increased reliability and less chance of the turbo dieing and damaging the new 2.2L Engine build. I can also sell my virtually brand new FP Red HTA (only has dyno run-in miles) to help pay for it.
Now the two BB turbos I am looking at are either the FP Red HTA BB or BBK-B BB (BLOUCH 760XT-R).
I would prefer to stick with FP but I have no UK results for the FP Red BB so I was hoping you US guys had done more testing since I assume it has been out here longer?
The BBK-B BB has grabbed my attention too because a UK member of MLR (Evo owners club) has one and I must admit it looks awesome with a massive improvement over his old BBK-B (journal bearing)
http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=396658
The resukts are on a 2.0L!!
If the FP Red BB offers similar or better performance then I am sold, but the BBK-B BB is looking a tempting turbo and is cheaper to buy too.
Thanks for any help offered.
Anees
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I would do either the BB BBK-B with the surge ported cover, or the BB HTA Green with the FP oil feed line. I realize that the Green is not on your short list, but it should be. It is absolutely one of the best bolt-on street turbos available, especially in BB format.
If it was my choice, I would cross the BB Red off the list because if you are going to go Red, then you might as well go BB Black. Only a couple hundred RPM difference in spoolup exists between the two turbos, and an easy 45WHP difference in power. In fact the BB Black should spoolup substantially the same as your current journal bearing Red.
But, overall, because you've expressed that you value overall responsiveness, as well as lowend and midrange torque, and that yours is a fast road car, then I would suggest either the BB-HTA Green. or the BB-BBK-B(3B).
EDIT: You might also want to seriously consider the new BB-BBK-C. In fact, this turbo might be right up your alley. The BBK-C's compressor flows marginally more than the Red and about 6 CFM more than the BBK-B. Something to think about at least.
If it was my choice, I would cross the BB Red off the list because if you are going to go Red, then you might as well go BB Black. Only a couple hundred RPM difference in spoolup exists between the two turbos, and an easy 45WHP difference in power. In fact the BB Black should spoolup substantially the same as your current journal bearing Red.
But, overall, because you've expressed that you value overall responsiveness, as well as lowend and midrange torque, and that yours is a fast road car, then I would suggest either the BB-HTA Green. or the BB-BBK-B(3B).
EDIT: You might also want to seriously consider the new BB-BBK-C. In fact, this turbo might be right up your alley. The BBK-C's compressor flows marginally more than the Red and about 6 CFM more than the BBK-B. Something to think about at least.
Last edited by sparky; Feb 5, 2012 at 06:01 AM.
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Thanks for the information....
I knew I would get the FP Black suggested... The issue with the Black is I would seriously have to replace my AYC with an RS diff which I don't really want and also would need to do a a 5 speed swap to be able to use it at its full potential (650bhp ++ turbo!). At that power level, transfer boxes and diffs can become consumables! lol
I would rather stick with a nice 500 - 580bhp setup. Before I had my car done I had many test drives and my favourite was a 2.2L on an FP Green HTA. My tuner recommended the FP Red because it spools almost the same as the green (he said on the road its hard to detect much difference in spool up, but on dynos its around 250rpm) and makes more power top end.
Has anyone got an FP Red BB that could post how it responds on the road compared to a journal bearing FP Red or even a BBK-B BB?
I knew I would get the FP Black suggested... The issue with the Black is I would seriously have to replace my AYC with an RS diff which I don't really want and also would need to do a a 5 speed swap to be able to use it at its full potential (650bhp ++ turbo!). At that power level, transfer boxes and diffs can become consumables! lol
I would rather stick with a nice 500 - 580bhp setup. Before I had my car done I had many test drives and my favourite was a 2.2L on an FP Green HTA. My tuner recommended the FP Red because it spools almost the same as the green (he said on the road its hard to detect much difference in spool up, but on dynos its around 250rpm) and makes more power top end.
Has anyone got an FP Red BB that could post how it responds on the road compared to a journal bearing FP Red or even a BBK-B BB?
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....I knew I would get the FP Black suggested... The issue with the Black is I would seriously have to replace my AYC with an RS diff which I don't really want and also would need to do a a 5 speed swap to be able to use it at its full potential (650bhp ++ turbo!). At that power level, transfer boxes and diffs can become consumables! lol...I would rather stick with a nice 500 - 580bhp setup.
You state that for you low-end torque production is important. Well, I have news for you, the Red and the BBK-B are probably going to produce higher low-end, lower midrange, midrange and upper midrange torque numbers than a Black will, everything else remaining the same.
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I would do either the BB BBK-B with the surge ported cover, or the BB HTA Green with the FP oil feed line. I realize that the Green is not on your short list, but it should be. It is absolutely one of the best bolt-on street turbos available, especially in BB format.
If it was my choice, I would cross the BB Red off the list because if you are going to go Red, then you might as well go BB Black. Only a couple hundred RPM difference in spoolup exists between the two turbos, and an easy 45WHP difference in power. In fact the BB Black should spoolup substantially the same as your current journal bearing Red.
But, overall, because you've expressed that you value overall responsiveness, as well as lowend and midrange torque, and that yours is a fast road car, then I would suggest either the BB-HTA Green. or the BB-BBK-B(3B).
EDIT: You might also want to seriously consider the new BB-BBK-C. In fact, this turbo might be right up your alley. The BBK-C's compressor flows marginally more than the Red and about 6 CFM more than the BBK-B. Something to think about at least.
If it was my choice, I would cross the BB Red off the list because if you are going to go Red, then you might as well go BB Black. Only a couple hundred RPM difference in spoolup exists between the two turbos, and an easy 45WHP difference in power. In fact the BB Black should spoolup substantially the same as your current journal bearing Red.
But, overall, because you've expressed that you value overall responsiveness, as well as lowend and midrange torque, and that yours is a fast road car, then I would suggest either the BB-HTA Green. or the BB-BBK-B(3B).
EDIT: You might also want to seriously consider the new BB-BBK-C. In fact, this turbo might be right up your alley. The BBK-C's compressor flows marginally more than the Red and about 6 CFM more than the BBK-B. Something to think about at least.
The BB Black may spool similar to JB Red however still making full boost is not nearly the same...OR IS IT?
w/ the new BB HTA Green, I heard it spools & responds just like stock evo 9 turbo but doesnt make as much top end as red.
BBK-BB doesnt flow as much as red but the BBK-C does.
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I guess that only the OP knows exactly how his engine's additional 200cc of displacement influences spool up on his JB Red, and whether that level of spool was acceptable, or whether he is wanting even better spool and transient response. And whether he would be willing to accept the tradeoff of slightly less top-end from a BB-BBK-B, or a BB-HTA Green in exchange for even better spool than a BB-Red would offer.
I was just placing the BB-HTA Green and the BB-BBK-C as possible bookends at opposite ends of a spectrum which would include the other two BB turbo stock-frame turbos(CBRD BB-BBK-B, and the BB FP Red) which he originally mentioned.
I realize that the BB Black would probably be considered a far reach for a fast driven road car on pump gas. I'd think that he would want to go no bigger than the still to be released BB BBK-C. I just mentioned the "C", whose compressor flows a tad more than that of his Red, but due to the BB format probably outspools it, just in case he was not yet aware of its pending release.
EDIT: I realize that it must seem that I am just talking straight off the top of my head(as usual). But, I personally run a JB Red on my car and it just spools at least 400 RPM slower than I would like it to....even extremely preloaded. So, I am interested to see what the OP decides to get and am looking forward to reading his driving impressions once he installs his new turbo.
I was just placing the BB-HTA Green and the BB-BBK-C as possible bookends at opposite ends of a spectrum which would include the other two BB turbo stock-frame turbos(CBRD BB-BBK-B, and the BB FP Red) which he originally mentioned.
I realize that the BB Black would probably be considered a far reach for a fast driven road car on pump gas. I'd think that he would want to go no bigger than the still to be released BB BBK-C. I just mentioned the "C", whose compressor flows a tad more than that of his Red, but due to the BB format probably outspools it, just in case he was not yet aware of its pending release.
EDIT: I realize that it must seem that I am just talking straight off the top of my head(as usual). But, I personally run a JB Red on my car and it just spools at least 400 RPM slower than I would like it to....even extremely preloaded. So, I am interested to see what the OP decides to get and am looking forward to reading his driving impressions once he installs his new turbo.
Last edited by sparky; Feb 8, 2012 at 09:02 AM.
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Don't get me wrong the JB Red does not really spool up all that bad. It is just that currently I like to drive on twisty mountain secondary roads with relatively tight 35-50 mph corners connected by short straightaways(75 mph max). The Red just doesn't wake up on my favorite stretch of road.
Also, my RS has the ultra shorty JDM C.R. 5-spd. and I am always short shifting on that road at between 3800-6200 RPM. So, in that rev range the Red is just not happening at all. Once I get it out on the open highway the Red comes into its element on high speed sweepers.
Perhaps I am not being really fair in my evaluation of the JB Red. My car was not retuned yet for the Red after my OS Green. As I mentioned, the cams are retarded which hinders turbo spool up as well. Finally, I am having issues with my WGA which is strictly my fault too.
Last edited by sparky; Feb 10, 2012 at 05:34 PM.
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I have about 200 or so miles on the new FP DBB Red, at this point im really happy with it, a great happy medium between the Black and Green, im seeing 200ish diff in spool at worst and 50ish hp of the Green. Oh but wait im just on pump gas IF the weather breaks I will drive it to Buschurs to see how it goes, but as of right now the cars the fastest it's ever been, even without E85.
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^^^^ That people is why im waiting for my black to blow chunks....i traded red for a black and really miss the reds snap.....maybe i should just run some royal purple in my car for a month hmmmm....jk